The MMX series has a confused and very hard to follow story that constantly contradicts itsself and goes back on things in the next game because it would be inconvenient, so no, I would not say that they have great stories by a longshot... they try, but fail because of how ridiclous they get and how overly dramatic and reliant on lame contrivances the plots get... nothing like Metroid Prime...
And sometimes instruction manual backstories are great and an integral part of the game! When they are well done anyway; see: Warcraft I, Warcraft II, and Starcraft... the manual section of the story is fantastic in those games and is definitely a major and integral part of understanding the game's stories.
Yeah... you're really dumb.
ABF in a few years: And I present to you, the best story-driven game ever created!!!!
Gamers everywhere: WOO!!!
*gamers everywhere play the game*
Gamers everywhere: ... Ok what the fuck happened to the story??
ABF: What do you mean?
Gamers everywhere: You just go around hitting stuff! There's no damn story!
ABF: Are you kidding me?? There's a like a five-hundred page instruction manual included with the game!
Gamers everwhere: ... Ok you are an idiot.
What a insightful and appropriate response!
Read it again, I edited it.
I'm sure I've said this before, but one way the MP story could have been presented better is if the story was told through flashbacks from the eyes of the Chozo. For example: you find an artifact of some kind and suddenly you're visor goes black. Then everything comes into focus and you see the events happening around you, but have no control over them. Visor stays in view because I think that would add it bit to the immersion of the flashback. Neat, eh?
Great Rumbler Wrote:I'm sure I've said this before, but one way the MP story could have been presented better is if the story was told through flashbacks from the eyes of the Chozo. For example: you find an artifact of some kind and suddenly you're visor goes black. Then everything comes into focus and you see the events happening around you, but have no control over them. Visor stays in view because I think that would add it bit to the immersion of the flashback. Neat, eh?
That would have been cool.
And instead of text explaing what's going on or a narrator, you could figure out what's going on just be listening to the Chozo around you or even the one who you're viewing everything from. Of course they'd have to be speaking in Chozo since doing it any other way wouldn't work, so it would have to have subtitles. The explanation for the flashbacks could be that they were pre-programmed into the powersuit to run when Samus encountered a certain object or they could even be downloaded from computer terminals.
I like reading, so I see nothing wrong with including part of your story in the manual... make it a part you don't strictly have to read to be able to play the game, like Blizzard did (that is, backstory), but put it there. In most games stuff like that doesn't show up in the game itsself, and putting it in the manual allows for more depth anyway, so where is the problem?
What is stupid is if it isn't in the manual or the game but you have to look it up on the internet (see: fighting games). They call those good stories...
... maybe if you take the time to find them they are quarter decent, but the story should actually be included in the package I think. :)
Quote:I'm sure I've said this before, but one way the MP story could have been presented better is if the story was told through flashbacks from the eyes of the Chozo. For example: you find an artifact of some kind and suddenly you're visor goes black. Then everything comes into focus and you see the events happening around you, but have no control over them. Visor stays in view because I think that would add it bit to the immersion of the flashback. Neat, eh?
Fine, want to be getting Metroid Prime 1 now then?
Quote:I like reading, so I see nothing wrong with including part of your story in the manual... make it a part you don't strictly have to read to be able to play the game, like Blizzard did (that is, backstory), but put it there. In most games stuff like that doesn't show up in the game itsself, and putting it in the manual allows for more depth anyway, so where is the problem?
What is stupid is if it isn't in the manual or the game but you have to look it up on the internet (see: fighting games). They call those good stories... ... maybe if you take the time to find them they are quarter decent, but the story should actually be included in the package I think.
There's nothing wrong with a manual giving a backstory to a game, without it we wouldn't know what the hell happened in 99% of all NES games. What
is wrong is when you claim that a game has a good story because of it's instruction manual or instruction manual-like story bits in the game.
Quote:Fine, want to be getting Metroid Prime 1 now then?
... that didn't make any sense...
Quote:... that didn't make any sense...
Not a bit.
Quote:... that didn't make any sense...
As in actually making all of those cutscenes (well not all of them, maybe a quarter, any more than that and it'd be too much for any game -- you'd have to drop a good 75% of the story probably...) would take a lot longer to make...
Quote:There's nothing wrong with a manual giving a backstory to a game, without it we wouldn't know what the hell happened in 99% of all NES games. What is wrong is when you claim that a game has a good story because of it's instruction manual or instruction manual-like story bits in the game.
So it's good in some cases and bad in others, depending on your whim? Umm... yeah, right...
Quote:As in actually making all of those cutscenes (well not all of them, maybe a quarter, any more than that and it'd be too much for any game -- you'd have to drop a good 75% of the story probably...) would take a lot longer to make...
...
Quote:So it's good in some cases and bad in others, depending on your whim? Umm... yeah, right...
Holy crap do you not understand a
thing I ever say? GR, help me out here!
You get what I'm saying, right?
Quote:As in actually making all of those cutscenes (well not all of them, maybe a quarter, any more than that and it'd be too much for any game -- you'd have to drop a good 75% of the story probably...) would take a lot longer to make...
It wouldn't take that long to make, they might have to omit a few things, though. Besides there are other ways they could express the story.
Hey... respond to my post.
Look, you simply cannot put the same volume of story in a standard game that you can put in it if you put it in the manual or do like MP. Oh, a few games do, but not many... especially not with the backstory. MP is one of the few that really tries, I think, and it tries it in a not normal way. I know I am not the only person who thinks MP has a good story... I guess it just shows that their experiment in making a different kind of story presentation isn't what people are used to so they resist it (or they don't like reading), but I see nothing at all wrong with it, and don't see anything in your arguements against it except that you dislike the presentation... which is a purely opinion issue you know and not objective... you act like of course your opinion about it is the only way and it's so horribly told any way anyone can look at it and that is simply false.
A Black Falcon Wrote:Look, you simply cannot put the same volume of story in a standard game that you can put in it if you put it in the manual or do like MP. Oh, a few games do, but not many... especially not with the backstory. MP is one of the few that really tries, I think, and it tries it in a not normal way. I know I am not the only person who thinks MP has a good story... I guess it just shows that their experiment in making a different kind of story presentation isn't what people are used to so they resist it (or they don't like reading), but I see nothing at all wrong with it, and don't see anything in your arguements against it except that you dislike the presentation... which is a purely opinion issue you know and not objective... you act like of course your opinion about it is the only way and it's so horribly told any way anyone can look at it and that is simply false.
You see, that is
you trying to make games into books! Video games are not books and shouldn't have huge books to do all of the story-telling for them! It's neat as a supplement,
a supplement!
And anyway, MP isn't a book, it's more like what a game should be: taking influences from older formats and changing them to fit the differences of a game. Games' unique factor is their interactivity. So in MP's case, that is expressed with making you look for and seek out the backstory elements to know what is going on and about the world around you. In a good PC RPG it's done through dialogue trees and some degree of open-ended design that doesn't make you spend all of your time on the main quest. Strategy games often seem to have less... that is, more linear stories. Once in a while you will find branching missions or multiple goals that lead to different results, but not often... adventure games? For them it is a mix. They've got a high degree of linearity, but also optional aspects (looking at things, etc) in most of them that give you more information about the world if you want it...
What MP really does differently is that it doesn't have much of a story for what is happening DURING the game and only has a story that explains what happened before the game started and why the events that are happening are happening. This is a design decision that I don't mind too much because that backstory is interesting enough that I don't miss that aspect really...
That is the exact same thing that an instruction manual does. That is not good story-telling, no matter how you want to put it, no matter what context it's in. The one video game that tells a story the way only a game could and without the need of dialogue is ICO, and that is where I see the future of video games as a narrative artform headed. Putting books into games is bad, putting what are essentially bits of an instruction manual is even worse. Putting movies into games is not ideal but the best method we have right now (aside from ICO's). It's constantly changing and there's no solid identity yet.
I do not see how putting books into games is any worse than putting movies into games. Not in the least. If the story it tells is good, I have no problem with it really... especially if it's presented in a good manner (and/or made optional, preferably and)...
It's also frusterating that you've never played 75% of the examples I mention when we talk about this you know, makes it really hard to get anywhere...but there is no way I'd agree that putting books into games is bad. And anyway, it generally isn't like Prime where it is just text... most cases of book-styled stories in games have some kind of images as well. Not always, but usually.
OB1 Wrote:Could you elaborate on that?
Well, the whole notion of a true AI having the capability to fully control.. whatever. Then going haywire.
Subtle reference to 2001: ASO --
HAL Emmerich, HAL was the name of the computer in 2001 which featured true AI. It was also, strangely, the most well developed character in the whole novel/movie.
A little more blatant -- When the computer in 2001 starts malfunctioning shortly before 'death' starts spouting out random insanity such as "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The rain in Spain is mainly in the plain". Seem a bit like in MGS when the AI starts malfunctioning? Just not quite as funny. :D
Also, and probably more profoundly, the whole notion of human evolution seems to be the main themes of the games/movie/novel.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said it was derivitive, as it's more likely been inspired by, and thus it makes sure to make plenty of references to 2001.
Oh, and I just wanted to say one more thing. I haven't really kept up with the rest of this thread and don't have time right now, but I really love in MGS2 how there's this huge 'imitation' novel to read through which details the whole first game (and more) from a completely different perspective.
This would kind of be the equivilent of MGS2's 'optional' storyline, on par with Metroid as it tells more so on how the current situation came to be.
ABF Wrote:I do not see how putting books into games is any worse than putting movies into games. Not in the least. If the story it tells is good, I have no problem with it really... especially if it's presented in a good manner (and/or made optional, preferably and)...
Gee I dunno... maybe it's because video games are a
visual medium? Hmmm...
ABF Wrote:It's also frusterating that you've never played 75% of the examples I mention when we talk about this you know, makes it really hard to get anywhere...but there is no way I'd agree that putting books into games is bad. And anyway, it generally isn't like Prime where it is just text... most cases of book-styled stories in games have some kind of images as well. Not always, but usually.
I've played a lot of the games you mentioned, more than enough.
Hudson Wrote:Well, the whole notion of a true AI having the capability to fully control.. whatever. Then going haywire.
Subtle reference to 2001: ASO -- HAL Emmerich, HAL was the name of the computer in 2001 which featured true AI. It was also, strangely, the most well developed character in the whole novel/movie.
A little more blatant -- When the computer in 2001 starts malfunctioning shortly before 'death' starts spouting out random insanity such as "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The rain in Spain is mainly in the plain". Seem a bit like in MGS when the AI starts malfunctioning? Just not quite as funny.
Also, and probably more profoundly, the whole notion of human evolution seems to be the main themes of the games/movie/novel.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said it was derivitive, as it's more likely been inspired by, and thus it makes sure to make plenty of references to 2001.
Good points, though I think you may be stretching a bit on some of them. But I'm certain Kojima is a fan of 2001.
Hudson Wrote:Oh, and I just wanted to say one more thing. I haven't really kept up with the rest of this thread and don't have time right now, but I really love in MGS2 how there's this huge 'imitation' novel to read through which details the whole first game (and more) from a completely different perspective.
This would kind of be the equivilent of MGS2's 'optional' storyline, on par with Metroid as it tells more so on how the current situation came to be.
You know, I never actually went through all of that. But I'm gonna replay through MGS2 before I get MGS3, so maybe I'll have time to read it. Can I get a transcript online?
Quote:I've played a lot of the games you mentioned, more than enough.
Given the way you have responded in the past I doubt that very strongly... very, very strongly.
Quote:Gee I dunno... maybe it's because video games are a visual medium? Hmmm...
Graphical and textual, OB1, not just the former. Unless you've never noticed that lots of games have text that you have to read in them? :D
Quote:You know, I never actually went through all of that. But I'm gonna replay through MGS2 before I get MGS3, so maybe I'll have time to read it. Can I get a transcript online?
Because it's all okay if we're talking about MGS?
OB1 Wrote:You know, I never actually went through all of that. But I'm gonna replay through MGS2 before I get MGS3, so maybe I'll have time to read it. Can I get a transcript online?
I'm not sure. But if there is, I'd highly recommend it. Reading through that whole book was extremely interesting and informative, but oh so painful on the eyes. Play through the game again, and then read it. It will make you go "Ohhhh, now I get it" so many times. :D
Quote:Because it's all okay if we're talking about MGS?
Not quite sure if I get what you mean here, but there is a pretty major difference. The novel we're referring to is for all intents and purposes a recount of the original game, just from a minor characters perspective, who.. I guess after having read it, is involved in some pretty major stuff. Given that it gives you the story that occurs before MGS2 and it is a completely optional read, it could be compared to Metroid Prime.
However, MGS2 has a storyline of it's own, completely independant of this non-essential information which occurs in real-time. Metroid really does not.
The fact that Hideo went to the effort of writing a hundred or so page book in addition to the huge storyline that is already present in the game just gives you a glimpse at how deep and amazing the storyline really is. It's just a pity most people write it off as fantastical nonsensical crap.
Just on a side note, I'd like to add that as amazing as the storyline is, it's really not the best part of the game. It's another shame that most people couldn't get past how intrusive the storyline was (although it needed to be) to see just what a great game it really was. It may take you two times through the game just to understand the story.. but if you play through another time, ignoring the story and just having FUN, it's probably the most incredible gameplay present in a game. Or it's at least up there.
Oh man, now I want to go play it again. :D
A Baby Falcon Wrote:Given the way you have responded in the past I doubt that very strongly... very, very strongly.
Unless the other games you talk about are
vastly different from Baldur's Gate and Fallout in terms of the way the story is presented, yes, that is enough.
POOP FACE!!! (aka ABF) Wrote:Graphical and textual, OB1, not just the former. Unless you've never noticed that lots of games have text that you have to read in them?
So did silent films.
Nice try, though.
Dr. I-can't-make-any-sense-ever (aka ABF) Wrote:Because it's all okay if we're talking about MGS?
... You really have to stop writing down bits from your train of thought out of context. That didn't make an ounce of sense.
Hudson Wrote:I'm not sure. But if there is, I'd highly recommend it. Reading through that whole book was extremely interesting and informative, but oh so painful on the eyes. Play through the game again, and then read it. It will make you go "Ohhhh, now I get it" so many times.
Play through MGS1 or 2 again?
And I know, it's like 128 pages long. I can't sit in front of a tv reading text for that long.
Hudson Wrote:Not quite sure if I get what you mean here
Nobody does, bubba, nobody does.
Hudson Wrote:Just on a side note, I'd like to add that as amazing as the storyline is, it's really not the best part of the game. It's another shame that most people couldn't get past how intrusive the storyline was (although it needed to be) to see just what a great game it really was. It may take you two times through the game just to understand the story.. but if you play through another time, ignoring the story and just having FUN, it's probably the most incredible gameplay present in a game. Or it's at least up there.
Oh man, now I want to go play it again.
I actually prefer the Splinter Cell style of gameplay over MGS since there's just so much more to do in terms of stealth. I do like the more open-ended environment in MGS2, but I can't experiment as much.
Quote:Unless the other games you talk about are vastly different from Baldur's Gate and Fallout in terms of the way the story is presented, yes, that is enough.
BG is a freshman effort and not the best example for storytelling in it's category. Oh, I like it, but there's better. As for Fallout... that just makes no sense at all. That game has a great story, start to finish, to go with its great setting, style, etc... the only complaint I can see is graphics, and that doesn't really matter very much now does it?
Quote:So did silent films.
Nice try, though.
I'm never going to agree with your moronic opinion that text-based games don't count, and this seems to be related to that...
Replay them both! :)
OB1 Wrote:I actually prefer the Splinter Cell style of gameplay over MGS since there's just so much more to do in terms of stealth. I do like the more open-ended environment in MGS2, but I can't experiment as much.
Yah, but where Splinter Cell is more stealthicized, MGS2 has the potential for some amazing action sequences. As far as stealth is concerned, perhaps you can't experiment as much, but with the action you certainly can. The amazing enemy AI alone will keep me entertained and trying different things for hours!
Quote:BG is a freshman effort and not the best example for storytelling in it's category. Oh, I like it, but there's better. As for Fallout... that just makes no sense at all. That game has a great story, start to finish, to go with its great setting, style, etc... the only complaint I can see is graphics, and that doesn't really matter very much now does it?
I played the first few hours of the game. Is the entire story told the same way?
Quote:I'm never going to agree with your moronic opinion that text-based games don't count, and this seems to be related to that...
Stupid, your argument is that games are "also books" because a lot of them have text, but so to silent films. And do you know
why that is? Because of limitations in sound up until fairly recently! Silent Films used text because they couldn't use sound, and the exact same thing goes for games (in that paricular case, high-quality sound)! Your argument that games are not just a visual medium because so many games use text is incredibly retarded, baffling beyond words.
You also misused the word "textual".
Quote:Yah, but where Splinter Cell is more stealthicized, MGS2 has the potential for some amazing action sequences. As far as stealth is concerned, perhaps you can't experiment as much, but with the action you certainly can. The amazing enemy AI alone will keep me entertained and trying different things for hours!
I'm looking forward to all of the new stuff MGS3 lets you fool around with. Now that will be a true sandbox.
Quote:I played the first few hours of the game. Is the entire story told the same way?
You start out in the wilderness with a mission that will take most of the game to complete. You go out knowing nothing about the world, find the first town and talk to the people there, get missions and progress, orjust wander around and do your own thing... you do have to do the main quest, but it's got a lot of variablity and replay value and non-linearity. Too much non-linearity in the storyline (like having to search people out and talk to them instead of being given the story) for you or something? I don't know why you dislike it...
Quote:Stupid, your argument is that games are "also books" because a lot of them have text, but so to silent films. And do you know why that is? Because of limitations in sound up until fairly recently! Silent Films used text because they couldn't use sound, and the exact same thing goes for games (in that paricular case, high-quality sound)! Your argument that games are not just a visual medium because so many games use text is incredibly retarded, baffling beyond words.
My point is just that books are just as good a source for games to have their stories and style inspired by as movies are...
As for speech, limitations of sound are the main reason, but for some games the volume of speech also is -- it'd just take too long to speak every line in Baldur's Gate... (how does KotOR do it? By not speaking out the lines aliens say -- and there are a lot of them -- and by cutting down the amount of lines somewhat.). But that's really just a presentation issue, not a deep gameplay one.
Quote:You start out in the wilderness with a mission that will take most of the game to complete. You go out knowing nothing about the world, find the first town and talk to the people there, get missions and progress, orjust wander around and do your own thing... you do have to do the main quest, but it's got a lot of variablity and replay value and non-linearity. Too much non-linearity in the storyline (like having to search people out and talk to them instead of being given the story) for you or something? I don't know why you dislike it...
I haven't played enough of Falout to see if I dislike the way the story is told. But you seem to compare it to the way stories are told in BG and MP, so I don't imagine it is actually good.
Quote:My point is just that books are just as good a source for games to have their stories and style inspired by as movies are...
Who said they can't be? Two mediums don't have to be similar to influence each other. Obviously books have inspired movies, movies have inspired games, and even games have inspired books. But each one is a distinctly different medium.
Quote:As for speech, limitations of sound are the main reason, but for some games the volume of speech also is -- it'd just take too long to speak every line in Baldur's Gate... (how does KotOR do it? By not speaking out the lines aliens say -- and there are a lot of them -- and by cutting down the amount of lines somewhat.). But that's really just a presentation issue, not a deep gameplay one.
When I said limitation in sound that included speech.
And everything in KOTOR (except for what your character says), has recorded dialogue.
Quote:I haven't played enough of Falout to see if I dislike the way the story is told. But you seem to compare it to the way stories are told in BG and MP, so I don't imagine it is actually good.
BG and MP have absolutely nothing in common as far as storytelling goes, so this comment makes no sense...
Quote:Who said they can't be? Two mediums don't have to be similar to influence each other. Obviously books have inspired movies, movies have inspired games, and even games have inspired books. But each one is a distinctly different medium.
True, but you seemed to be implying that movies are a better influence for games than books...
Quote:When I said limitation in sound that included speech.
And everything in KOTOR (except for what your character says), has recorded dialogue.
Nope. Aliens just repeat the same (very few number) of lines over and over and over. And aliens talk a lot in that game. It clearly saves them a huge amount of time and space, to not actually have the aliens use their languages (if they really exist), but no one who played the game for more than an hour or two should have been confused into thinking that they actually are voicing what it says one the screen! I found it extremely obvious and, eventually, annoying...
Quote:True, but you seemed to be implying that movies are a better influence for games than books...
How many videogames have been inspired by books though?
Some (I can think of a couple of computer games anyway). Certainly not as many as movies have influenced, but movies are more popular so that's to be expected...
Quote:BG and MP have absolutely nothing in common as far as storytelling goes, so this comment makes no sense...
They both use text in a "find-it-yourself instruction manual" manner.
Quote:True, but you seemed to be implying that movies are a better influence for games than books...
Obviously, as games are a visual medium just like movies are. Games can directly copy movies while books can only offer inspiration and technique.
Quote:Nope. Aliens just repeat the same (very few number) of lines over and over and over. And aliens talk a lot in that game. It clearly saves them a huge amount of time and space, to not actually have the aliens use their languages (if they really exist), but no one who played the game for more than an hour or two should have been confused into thinking that they actually are voicing what it says one the screen! I found it extremely obvious and, eventually, annoying...
There was still hundreds of hours of recorded dialogue in the game.
Quote:How many videogames have been inspired by books though?
Kobo Abe's "Kangaroo Notebook" inspired MGS2, according to Hideo Kojima. :D But that's only inspiration, like I said.
Quote:They both use text in a "find-it-yourself instruction manual" manner.
What the heck? BG's story presentation has nothing at all in common with MP! BG has a classic PC RPG story presentation. That is, there is a main linear story that you cannot avoid. In addition, there are numerous details that help flesh out the world that you can choose to explore or not (mostly in conversation choices, looking for more people to talk to, getting all the responses out of the civilians of an area, doing more sidequests, etc). But the main story is not optional. It's similar in Fallout, except it gives the player more choice... which is in fitting with its more freeform game style. Yes, there is a main story you can follow linearly if you wish, but it allows you to wander off, skip areas, etc. if you want to do that (but it is always clear where the next major story point is). Of course it's also got plenty of optional quests, conversations, and some readings that add more gameplay hours and flesh out the game, but they aren't required to understand the basics of the story. Just like Baldur's Gate.
Metroid Prime of course doesn't have that. If you don't look for the story you will get virtually nothing. I don't understand at all how you could call them the same... it makes about as much sense as saying that MP has the same kind of story presentation as Eternal Darkness because ED also has optional segments (looking at objects for more details) that help explain the story more that you can avoid if you wish! :S
Oh, and I have no idea what a "find-it-yourself instruction manual" is.
Quote:Obviously, as games are a visual medium just like movies are. Games can directly copy movies while books can only offer inspiration and technique.
I'd say that while that is somewhat true, there is also a sense of scale -- movies are short. Games are long. Books are also long. So for storytelling and stuff books can be better influences... especially for things like RPGs or adventure games...
Quote:There was still hundreds of hours of recorded dialogue in the game.
True, there is a lot, and it's pretty nice. I was just saying that it stands to highlight how the aliens quite definitely do not have that. Does it increase immersion? Yeah, probably a little bit. It's hardly a required thing, but it's a nice touch if the developer can do it decently.
Quote:What the heck? BG's story presentation has nothing at all in common with MP! BG has a classic PC RPG story presentation. That is, there is a main linear story that you cannot avoid. In addition, there are numerous details that help flesh out the world that you can choose to explore or not (mostly in conversation choices, looking for more people to talk to, getting all the responses out of the civilians of an area, doing more sidequests, etc). But the main story is not optional. It's similar in Fallout, except it gives the player more choice... which is in fitting with its more freeform game style. Yes, there is a main story you can follow linearly if you wish, but it allows you to wander off, skip areas, etc. if you want to do that (but it is always clear where the next major story point is). Of course it's also got plenty of optional quests, conversations, and some readings that add more gameplay hours and flesh out the game, but they aren't required to understand the basics of the story. Just like Baldur's Gate.
Metroid Prime of course doesn't have that. If you don't look for the story you will get virtually nothing. I don't understand at all how you could call them the same... it makes about as much sense as saying that MP has the same kind of story presentation as Eternal Darkness because ED also has optional segments (looking at objects for more details) that help explain the story more that you can avoid if you wish!
Oh, and I have no idea what a "find-it-yourself instruction manual" is.
The technique isn't the same but it's similar in its lack of presentation. Without presentation stories are just information.
Quote:I'd say that while that is somewhat true, there is also a sense of scale -- movies are short. Games are long. Books are also long. So for storytelling and stuff books can be better influences... especially for things like RPGs or adventure games...
You're not listening to me. Not that that's surprising to me whatsoever, but I though I'd point that out. Books can give inspiration to video games, but that is it. Movies, however, can be duplicated and added to with games.
Quote:True, there is a lot, and it's pretty nice. I was just saying that it stands to highlight how the aliens quite definitely do not have that. Does it increase immersion? Yeah, probably a little bit. It's hardly a required thing, but it's a nice touch if the developer can do it decently.
There's not just one alien language in the game, you know.
Quote:The technique isn't the same but it's similar in its lack of presentation. Without presentation stories are just information.
You make no sense so I probably should just pass it off as ignorance to how you play PC RPGs...
Actually, that wouldn't explain it. You just make no sense at all.
Quote:You're not listening to me. Not that that's surprising to me whatsoever, but I though I'd point that out. Books can give inspiration to video games, but that is it. Movies, however, can be duplicated and added to with games.
No, I'd say that they can influence games in very similar ways.
Quote:There's not just one alien language in the game, you know.
True. But generally each area of the game has one, so you hear those same five or so lines repeated over and over (and the same two faces)... :)
Quote:You make no sense so I probably should just pass it off as ignorance to how you play PC RPGs...
Actually, that wouldn't explain it. You just make no sense at all.
Information vs. story, ABF. You can't tell the difference between the two. Having all of the facts to a plot does not make it a good story. It just becomes simple information. I've already explained all that I need to, and it's very obvious that you are completely oblivious to the concepts of narrative and story-telling. Perhaps you need to take some creative writing classes.
Quote:No, I'd say that they can influence games in very similar ways.
As in putting actual books into the games? Yeah, that's definitely possible. But that's idiotic if it's the main story-telling method. Cinemas, however, can tell game tales wonderfully.
Quote:True. But generally each area of the game has one, so you hear those same five or so lines repeated over and over (and the same two faces)...
Name one other game with as much quality voice-acting as KOTOR.
Quote:Information vs. story, ABF. You can't tell the difference between the two. Having all of the facts to a plot does not make it a good story. It just becomes simple information. I've already explained all that I need to, and it's very obvious that you are completely oblivious to the concepts of narrative and story-telling. Perhaps you need to take some creative writing classes.
If you can't explain yourself in understandable terms, why should I listen to you or take your points as serious?
"Information"? Huh? I have no idea how you cannot say that Baldur's Gate or Fallout (even just the first couple of hours (did you reach the first town?)) have storytelling. Seriously, it makes me wonder if you were paying any attention at all to the games...
Let's take Baldur's Gate. So, it starts. Opening cutscene, which when you first see it seems neat but doesn't make much sense. Later on of course you'll figure out exactly what was going on there, but at the start you don't know, just like your character has no idea of what is really going on. Bad storytelling? No, just a storytelling choice. Then the game starts and you explore the first area... learn a little bit but you have no idea why you are so special. You won't learn this for a long time in this game. Maybe the story looks better upon reflection when you notice all of the little touches and storyline elements they include from the very beginning that a new player will not see, but I think it definitely has effective storytelling from the start. Maybe it's a bit thin, with long stretches of gameplay between short elements of story at points, but overall... I think BG has a decent story and it tells it in a perfectly good way. It's deep, deeper than the new player realizes... relatively complex, especially later in the series... and allows for plenty of great adventures and events along the way (again especially in BGII/ToB). You explore lands, do quests, learn about your world (via conversations with NPCs and during side quests)...
Fallout is different in many ways (like the fact that it has a more unique story and the story element of the game is larger than in BG), but the basics in many ways are similar -- a main story you follow by going to the points given, learning things, and then doing things; choices you make along the way (though unlike BG you actually have choices that affect the game -- choosing between good and bad, killing people or not, etc); the option to just wander around in a large area and just explore or do quests (again in Fallout you can get to a greater percentage of the game this way, but BG has quite a large area you can explore from the beginning)...
Oh yeah, and Fallout has a much, much better CG intro video. BG's is cool once you know what it IS, but Fallout's is just great from the first time you see it...
Unless you can actually explain where the problem is in your eyes, I think I should just ignore you.
Quote:As in putting actual books into the games? Yeah, that's definitely possible. But that's idiotic if it's the main story-telling method. Cinemas, however, can tell game tales wonderfully.
I'd say it's more common to see games influenced by both... movies for cinema scenes and books for the depth and length that games have and movies lack... books especially for more verbose games like RPGs and adventure games.
Quote:Name one other game with as much quality voice-acting as KOTOR.
I don't know exactly how much it had, so I can't answer that... I've played quite a few games fully voice acted after all, and I don't know exactly where it fits in. It does havea lot however.
Quote:If you can't explain yourself in understandable terms, why should I listen to you or take your points as serious?
"Information"? Huh? I have no idea how you cannot say that Baldur's Gate or Fallout (even just the first couple of hours (did you reach the first town?)) have storytelling. Seriously, it makes me wonder if you were paying any attention at all to the games...
Let's take Baldur's Gate. So, it starts. Opening cutscene, which when you first see it seems neat but doesn't make much sense. Later on of course you'll figure out exactly what was going on there, but at the start you don't know, just like your character has no idea of what is really going on. Bad storytelling? No, just a storytelling choice. Then the game starts and you explore the first area... learn a little bit but you have no idea why you are so special. You won't learn this for a long time in this game. Maybe the story looks better upon reflection when you notice all of the little touches and storyline elements they include from the very beginning that a new player will not see, but I think it definitely has effective storytelling from the start. Maybe it's a bit thin, with long stretches of gameplay between short elements of story at points, but overall... I think BG has a decent story and it tells it in a perfectly good way. It's deep, deeper than the new player realizes... relatively complex, especially later in the series... and allows for plenty of great adventures and events along the way (again especially in BGII/ToB). You explore lands, do quests, learn about your world (via conversations with NPCs and during side quests)...
Fallout is different in many ways (like the fact that it has a more unique story and the story element of the game is larger than in BG), but the basics in many ways are similar -- a main story you follow by going to the points given, learning things, and then doing things; choices you make along the way (though unlike BG you actually have choices that affect the game -- choosing between good and bad, killing people or not, etc); the option to just wander around in a large area and just explore or do quests (again in Fallout you can get to a greater percentage of the game this way, but BG has quite a large area you can explore from the beginning)...
Oh yeah, and Fallout has a much, much better CG intro video. BG's is cool once you know what it IS, but Fallout's is just great from the first time you see it...
Unless you can actually explain where the problem is in your eyes, I think I should just ignore you.
Most of the story in BG is told through boring conversations with NPCs and scrolls and crap. That's not good storytelling, as hard as you try to convince yourself otherwise.
Quote:I'd say it's more common to see games influenced by both... movies for cinema scenes and books for the depth and length that games have and movies lack... books especially for more verbose games like RPGs and adventure games.
I've already explained this in depth. Both can
influence games but since games are a
visual medium only
movies can be
recreated in them.
Quote:I don't know exactly how much it had, so I can't answer that... I've played quite a few games fully voice acted after all, and I don't know exactly where it fits in. It does havea lot however.
KOTOR has an insane amount of recorded dialogue in it, and the acting is done well for a video game.
Quote:I've already explained this in depth. Both can influence games but since games are a visual medium only movies can be recreated in them.
But whenever a game comes out that is too non-interactive, like a movie, it gets greatly criticized... yes, games probably have been more directly similar to movies. But when that happens the game gets hammered for it. As for books, they can have a great influence in how the game goes, just like movies do for most games...
Quote:KOTOR has an insane amount of recorded dialogue in it, and the acting is done well for a video game.
I'd have to know the exact amounts of speech in other adventure and RPG games to know the exact quantities, however. KotOR certainly has a lot, but so do other games... adventure games and RPGs often have lots of speech and when it's all voiced it can be quite a bit. But I don't know exactly how much speech was in, say, The Longest Journey...
Quote:Most of the story in BG is told through boring conversations with NPCs and scrolls and crap. That's not good storytelling, as hard as you try to convince yourself otherwise.
Oh right, that arguement. Uh, scrolls? How much of the actual main story is told in scrolls? Oh yeah, almost none. The main purpose of books in the BG games is not to tell the main story or anything relating to the main story but to tell tales about the Realms. As I've said before, that aspect of the game is there for people who want to read more about the Realms, but has no direct or indirect impact on the main game story.
What does then? The (very few) scrolls you run into that explain story elements, generally as part of a puzzle. Fine, those are story-scrolls. But they also are usually there as clue elements in puzzles, so they serve other purposes as well...
And as for conversations, complaining about that is just incredibly stupid. If you dislike conversations, don't say that BG has bad storytelling. Say that you dislike its storytelling method. Because telling a story via conversations is a just fine way of doing it. Okay, if it's a game like The Longest Journey with frequent extremely long conversations I could see how you could say that you felt they were boring, but Baldur's Gate? They aren't particularly long or anything so I see nothing to complain about for anyone with the remotest intrest in games having stories.
Oh yeah, and KotOR is identically designed in storytelling terms except for the addition of speech. The differences other than that are minor and don't greatly affect the tone of the storytelling in the game.
Quote:But whenever a game comes out that is too non-interactive, like a movie, it gets greatly criticized... yes, games probably have been more directly similar to movies. But when that happens the game gets hammered for it. As for books, they can have a great influence in how the game goes, just like movies do for most games...
Metal Gear Solid 1 & 2 use hours of cinemas to tell their stories, but they also have plenty of great gameplay. If you tried to actually replicate that with a book, where the story is told through basically an e-book in the game, it would suck badly.
Quote:I'd have to know the exact amounts of speech in other adventure and RPG games to know the exact quantities, however. KotOR certainly has a lot, but so do other games... adventure games and RPGs often have lots of speech and when it's all voiced it can be quite a bit. But I don't know exactly how much speech was in, say, The Longest Journey...
So you don't know.
Quote:Oh right, that arguement. Uh, scrolls? How much of the actual main story is told in scrolls? Oh yeah, almost none. The main purpose of books in the BG games is not to tell the main story or anything relating to the main story but to tell tales about the Realms. As I've said before, that aspect of the game is there for people who want to read more about the Realms, but has no direct or indirect impact on the main game story.
What does then? The (very few) scrolls you run into that explain story elements, generally as part of a puzzle. Fine, those are story-scrolls. But they also are usually there as clue elements in puzzles, so they serve other purposes as well...
And as for conversations, complaining about that is just incredibly stupid. If you dislike conversations, don't say that BG has bad storytelling. Say that you dislike its storytelling method. Because telling a story via conversations is a just fine way of doing it. Okay, if it's a game like The Longest Journey with frequent extremely long conversations I could see how you could say that you felt they were boring, but Baldur's Gate? They aren't particularly long or anything so I see nothing to complain about for anyone with the remotest intrest in games having stories.
So a conversation between two people about The Hobbit would be as interesting as reading the book? You're nuts.
Quote:Oh yeah, and KotOR is identically designed in storytelling terms except for the addition of speech. The differences other than that are minor and don't greatly affect the tone of the storytelling in the game.
KOTOR's story is not told well at all.
Quote:Metal Gear Solid 1 & 2 use hours of cinemas to tell their stories, but they also have plenty of great gameplay. If you tried to actually replicate that with a book, where the story is told through basically an e-book in the game, it would suck badly.
I'm sure it would be plenty good. Maybe not as engrossing, but it certainly could be good.
Quote:So you don't know.
And neither do you.
Quote:KOTOR's story is not told well at all.
KotOR's story is told decently, but I'd say that it's not quite as well told as BGII. Though I'm sure that my reasons for why I think it wasn't told quite as well as it could have been have little in common with yours. :)
Quote:So a conversation between two people about The Hobbit would be as interesting as reading the book? You're nuts.
Wha... uh... what does this have to do with BGI? Conversation is a pretty standard story vehicle that pretty much all games with stories use... the only difference in BG is that you have to initiate the conversations (not hard since it tells you clearly where to go and, usually, who to talk to, and most of the other ones worth mentioning are people you'll run into while doing that) and get choices during the conversations. Well, and that they aren't spoken. But other than that, it's no different from most any other RPG with a reasonable amount of story, PC or console...
Quote:I'm sure it would be plenty good. Maybe not as engrossing, but it certainly could be good.
What are you serious? You really think that people want to read hundreds of pages of text on their tv while they're playing a game?
Seriously man, make sure you never, ever make games. :)
Quote:And neither do you.
I asked you to name something, and you couldn't.
Quote:KotOR's story is told decently, but I'd say that it's not quite as well told as BGII. Though I'm sure that my reasons for why I think it wasn't told quite as well as it could have been have little in common with yours.
That is because you really don't know what makes a good story. Seriously, I don't mean that as insult; it's a fact. You may personally
like these poor methods of story-telling, but they would generally considered as being
bad by anyone who knows at least a little bit about the art of story-telling. And before you go "pfft yeah right" or whatever you're bound to say, take a course or two in creative writing at your college. You're talking out of pure ignorance, you really do not know what you are talking about.
Quote:Wha... uh... what does this have to do with BGI? Conversation is a pretty standard story vehicle that pretty much all games with stories use... the only difference in BG is that you have to initiate the conversations (not hard since it tells you clearly where to go and, usually, who to talk to, and most of the other ones worth mentioning are people you'll run into while doing that) and get choices during the conversations. Well, and that they aren't spoken. But other than that, it's no different from most any other RPG with a reasonable amount of story, PC or console...
I'm going to reveal something wild and crazy to you right now: Most RPG stories suck. We use terms like "well for a game" for a reason. And that's not because of stuff like Mario. The majority of gamers out there play games mainly as a distraction from life and whenever they encounter something with a hint of meaning they blow it out of proportion. FFVII does
not have a great story. It's a fun, atmospheric game with a story that's told well for a video game. Whenever gamers are faced with something that actually tries to elevate the medium to something greater they either get shocked or offended by it (MGS2) or simply ignore it (ICO). We're entering a transitional phase in gaming right now, where games will soon gain respect from the mainstream as a legitimate art form, much like film did in the mid-20th century thanks to directors like Ingmar Bergman, Akira Kurosawa, and Jean Renoir. Many gamers are going to be blind to that and continue to look at games as mindless entertainment, much like how many movie-goers also think of movies. There's nothing wrong with that, it's great that these mediums can be enjoyed on so many different levels. Anyhow, because games are starting to become as important as books and movies, the standards, too, are being brought up to their levels. And because of that, the former ways of telling stories which used to be acceptable no longer are, or at least very shortly, no longer will be. That goes for Baldur's Gate, Metroid Prime, FF, you name it. (Grim Fandango, however, will be seen as one of the pioneers :) ). In order to gain the same respect as books and movies games are going to have to grow up. Your way, the way you are satisfied with, with not do. You can deny that all you want to, as I'm sure you will. You can believe that there's nothing wrong with your way, and you'll be wrong. But go ahead and believe what you want to, I don't expect you to be any different from the types of people who did not accept the likes of MGS2 and ICO. I tell you this because I hold out a tiny bit of hope for you.
Quote:What are you serious? You really think that people want to read hundreds of pages of text on their tv while they're playing a game?
Seriously man, make sure you never, ever make games.
No, no, to make it good it'd be more of a game done LIKE a book... when done well it would of course implement graphical elements. Let's take Fire Emblem... that has a lot of story that is presented with static character pictures and background setting images to supplement the conversation. This could be done with just words (and would be in a book), but I'd still call the game much more influenced by books than anything else for how it does the story, in many regards at least.
Quote:That is because you really don't know what makes a good story. Seriously, I don't mean that as insult; it's a fact. You may personally like these poor methods of story-telling, but they would generally considered as being bad by anyone who knows at least a little bit about the art of story-telling. And before you go "pfft yeah right" or whatever you're bound to say, take a course or two in creative writing at your college. You're talking out of pure ignorance, you really do not know what you are talking about.
There are far too many people out there who love PC RPGs for their stories for your attack to mean anything other than a statement of your dislike of reading text in games...
And your attack on game stories would be more sane (maybe a bad phrase to use... you do have some good points among the bad ones...) if not for the fact that some of the games you attack are actually at the forefront of doing exactly what you suggest. What do I mean? Oh, I'm sure you can see it coming... ahem, Torment. Utterly brilliant, as literate as anything in the fantasy field (pc or no)... you'd probably hate it though because the primary way it tells the story and describes the world is through text and conversation. (but you know what? Here's a stunning thought: books have text in them. Yup, seriously, they do! Can you believe it? ... that is to say, calling games where you have to read (and in Torment's case respond) bad for that fact is the same as calling books bad because you have to read them...) It's got more reading text than any game I have ever played. But you know what? Where a BG might leave me a bit bored (like with reading all of those Forgotten Realms history books you could find in the BG games -- I did not read them all as it got dull), Torment never did. It's too well done. I would also call it a model for games as being influenced by books -- well written and with a deep, complex story, but also with lots of player interaction -- it's not just clicking the button to scroll through the text. You respond and what you hear is shaped by how you do that. You can only slightly change the outcome, but you can change how you go through the game and what you get out of it to a great degree. So I'd give it as a model for both books-in-games and for making the elements you take out of other forms of media into something unique for games -- something that involves interactivity.
Yes, in the majority case games have not progressed to the point that you suggest. Baldur's Gate? They are extremely, extremely well done games, with a great fantasy story, but they don't serve to advance fantasy in general. Fantasy gaming they did, because BGI in particular did what hadn't really been done before, but compared to books, it suffers despite its good qualities... I'd say BG is a perfectly good work of D&D fiction, but admittedly definitely doesn't go into the realm of great literature or something.
Fallout... hmm, classifying that game in this is hard. It's not Torment (then again nothing is), but it's definitely above BG. The setting is more unique (post-apocalyptic), mainly, which leads to a very different kind of game especially when combined with the amount of non-linearity and choice they allow -- while in BG you really cannot be evil, it's easy enough in Fallout and at plenty of points in the game you must make moral choices which will definitely affect how the game progresses, while still staying in a cohesive narrative (which is the flaw, from a storyline perspective, of a game as open-ended as The Elder Scrolls -- the narrative gets lost in the open-endedness).
Grim Fandango? It was certainly a fantastic adventure game, but I don't know if I'd put it on a pedestal way above some others. If it is to be mentioned you would have to cite a good portion of the adventure game genre (not surprising, being the genre most impacted by books). That one is my favorite, and is a good choice to mention when talking about advancing stories past the usual gaming stuff, but I'd also probably want to mention more... especially Lucasarts ones. Yes, they are different kinds of games that would fit into other categories, but I have to say 'Curse of Monkey Island'. And 'Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis'. Maybe (non-LA) The Longest Journey and Beneath a Steel Sky, as well... not quite as sure about those two, though they are great games with very good stories.
Quote:No, no, to make it good it'd be more of a game done LIKE a book... when done well it would of course implement graphical elements. Let's take Fire Emblem... that has a lot of story that is presented with static character pictures and background setting images to supplement the conversation. This could be done with just words (and would be in a book), but I'd still call the game much more influenced by books than anything else for how it does the story, in many regards at least.
There's pretty much just dialogue in FE, like a movie. There's no narration.
Quote:There are far too many people out there who love PC RPGs for their stories for your attack to mean anything other than a statement of your dislike of reading text in games...
Of course there are many people who love the current, archaic method of story-telling in games. I even said that very same thing. You did not read what I wrote, so do so again.
And did I ever say anything about disliking text? No. Again you are not paying any attention.
Quote:And your attack on game stories would be more sane (maybe a bad phrase to use... you do have some good points among the bad ones...) if not for the fact that some of the games you attack are actually at the forefront of doing exactly what you suggest. What do I mean? Oh, I'm sure you can see it coming... ahem, Torment. Utterly brilliant, as literate as anything in the fantasy field (pc or no)... you'd probably hate it though because the primary way it tells the story and describes the world is through text and conversation. (but you know what? Here's a stunning thought: books have text in them. Yup, seriously, they do! Can you believe it?
Wow, what a great point! Hey do you know what
else uses text? The ingredients panel on my peanut butter crunch box! Can you believe
that??
Quote: ... that is to say, calling games where you have to read (and in Torment's case respond) bad for that fact is the same as calling books bad because you have to read them...)
I love it how you take certain parts of my posts out of context and put them in ones that fit yours. I never once said that text is bad, I said that the
method and
execution of the story-telling in these games are bad.
Quote:It's got more reading text than any game I have ever played. But you know what? Where a BG might leave me a bit bored (like with reading all of those Forgotten Realms history books you could find in the BG games -- I did not read them all as it got dull), Torment never did. It's too well done. I would also call it a model for games as being influenced by books -- well written and with a deep, complex story, but also with lots of player interaction -- it's not just clicking the button to scroll through the text. You respond and what you hear is shaped by how you do that. You can only slightly change the outcome, but you can change how you go through the game and what you get out of it to a great degree. So I'd give it as a model for both books-in-games and for making the elements you take out of other forms of media into something unique for games -- something that involves interactivity.
Yes, in the majority case games have not progressed to the point that you suggest. Baldur's Gate? They are extremely, extremely well done games, with a great fantasy story, but they don't serve to advance fantasy in general. Fantasy gaming they did, because BGI in particular did what hadn't really been done before, but compared to books, it suffers despite its good qualities... I'd say BG is a perfectly good work of D&D fiction, but admittedly definitely doesn't go into the realm of great literature or something.
Fallout... hmm, classifying that game in this is hard. It's not Torment (then again nothing is), but it's definitely above BG. The setting is more unique (post-apocalyptic), mainly, which leads to a very different kind of game especially when combined with the amount of non-linearity and choice they allow -- while in BG you really cannot be evil, it's easy enough in Fallout and at plenty of points in the game you must make moral choices which will definitely affect how the game progresses, while still staying in a cohesive narrative (which is the flaw, from a storyline perspective, of a game as open-ended as The Elder Scrolls -- the narrative gets lost in the open-endedness).
There is very little in the way of actual narratives in these games you love. Like I said, you know nothing about this subject and until you do you will only make yourself look like the sterotypical nerdy gamer who thinks that their immature games weave great, epic tales. Unfortunately you represent most gamers out there who refuse to let their tastes grow up.
Quote:Grim Fandango? It was certainly a fantastic adventure game, but I don't know if I'd put it on a pedestal way above some others. If it is to be mentioned you would have to cite a good portion of the adventure game genre (not surprising, being the genre most impacted by books). That one is my favorite, and is a good choice to mention when talking about advancing stories past the usual gaming stuff, but I'd also probably want to mention more... especially Lucasarts ones. Yes, they are different kinds of games that would fit into other categories, but I have to say 'Curse of Monkey Island'. And 'Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis'. Maybe (non-LA) The Longest Journey and Beneath a Steel Sky, as well... not quite as sure about those two, though they are great games with very good stories.
Grim Fandango's execution is like no other adventure game's that I have played. Not only is the plot interesting but it's told in a way that blends film conventions and aspects that only games can offer quite seemlessly.
Quote:There's pretty much just dialogue in FE, like a movie. There's no narration.
Fire Emblem is all dialogue, that is true. But it's a great game with a great script that is presented really well. Movies or books? Probably both. But that is a great example of a game with a really good engrossing story. It's only missing one thing: interactivity. This is where some of those games you bash so much shine, you know... these are "interactive games" so ideally the story too should be able to be bent by player choices. This isn't true for most console games (or indeed most strategy games in general, PC or console). Still, FE has a great story that is pretty interesting. It is a little confusing at times, but it eventually explains things, so that's okay...
Quote:Of course there are many people who love the current, archaic method of story-telling in games. I even said that very same thing. You did not read what I wrote, so do so again.
And did I ever say anything about disliking text? No. Again you are not paying any attention.
Pretty much, yeah, you have. You've complained about games where you spend a lot of time reading, said that a game where you spent a large percentage of the time reading text boxes would be bad, said you hate BG in a large part because the story is told by conversation, etc, etc... it's a clear and consistent point of yours in these arguements.
And again, BG's storytelling method is not archaic. An archaic PC RPG storytelling method is the one in, say, Wizardry VI -- "There is an evil thing. Go and kill it!". Maybe this is backed up by some well written segments, but they are few and far between compared to the amount of just fighting and wandering around. Compared to older PC RPGs, Baldur's Gate is a definite step forward. ... well, Fallout was, but everyone ignored Fallout. :)
Quote:I love it how you take certain parts of my posts out of context and put them in ones that fit yours. I never once said that text is bad, I said that the method and execution of the story-telling in these games are bad.
You keep repeating that but you don't explain it so it means nothing.
Quote:Grim Fandango's execution is like no other adventure game's that I have played. Not only is the plot interesting but it's told in a way that blends film conventions and aspects that only games can offer quite seemlessly.
It's different in setting and style from most adventure games (the Mexican Day of the Dead motif), but not in substance or how it is structured, I thought... I just thought that it was the best adventure game I'd ever played. :)
Quote:There is very little in the way of actual narratives in these games you love. Like I said, you know nothing about this subject and until you do you will only make yourself look like the sterotypical nerdy gamer who thinks that their immature games weave great, epic tales. Unfortunately you represent most gamers out there who refuse to let their tastes grow up.
That comment proves that you have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about when it comes to PC RPGs and adventure games. No clue at all. You constantly complain to me about saying more than you can back up with your own personal experience, and I think that here is a perfect example of the other way around. It's very sad to see you attacking whole genres with a broad stroke... especially when you then go and selectively pick out one or two games from that group that are somehow done far better even though in presentation and substance there isn't much of a difference, no matter how well versed you are in "understanding storytelling"...
Oh yeah, and I was saying almost the opposite of what you imply my meaning was, so whether you agree with my previous paragraph or not the issue is irrelevant. You took what I said and flipped the meaning around almost 180 degrees.
Quote:Fire Emblem is all dialogue, that is true. But it's a great game with a great script that is presented really well. Movies or books? Probably both. But that is a great example of a game with a really good engrossing story. It's only missing one thing: interactivity. This is where some of those games you bash so much shine, you know... these are "interactive games" so ideally the story too should be able to be bent by player choices. This isn't true for most console games (or indeed most strategy games in general, PC or console). Still, FE has a great story that is pretty interesting. It is a little confusing at times, but it eventually explains things, so that's okay...
I love Fire Emblem, probably much more than even you do. But I wouldn't call the the story "great". It's good
for a game.
Quote:Pretty much, yeah, you have. You've complained about games where you spend a lot of time reading, said that a game where you spent a large percentage of the time reading text boxes would be bad, said you hate BG in a large part because the story is told by conversation, etc, etc... it's a clear and consistent point of yours in these arguements.
Reading the length of an entire novel would be a pain, but mainly because of how stressful it is for the eyes to read on a tv or pc screen.
Quote:And again, BG's storytelling method is not archaic. An archaic PC RPG storytelling method is the one in, say, Wizardry VI -- "There is an evil thing. Go and kill it!". Maybe this is backed up by some well written segments, but they are few and far between compared to the amount of just fighting and wandering around. Compared to older PC RPGs, Baldur's Gate is a definite step forward. ... well, Fallout was, but everyone ignored Fallout.
Brian. Seriously. You are wrong. You've proven to me that you don't know anything about stories aside from the fact that you like some of them. You don't understand pacing, execution, or the narrative form in general. That's okay, you've never studied any of this. But continuing to talk as if you
do know anything about this is getting very boring.
Quote:You keep repeating that but you don't explain it so it means nothing.
I've explained it at least a dozen times in this thread. You must be dyslexic. That's the only explanation I can think of.
Quote:It's different in setting and style from most adventure games (the Mexican Day of the Dead motif), but not in substance or how it is structured, I thought... I just thought that it was the best adventure game I'd ever played.
Well you can't tell the difference between great story-telling and not-so-great story-telling, so that comes as no surprise. Just like how many people can't tell the difference between
Once Upon A Time In The West and
Tombstone. Or how many people can't tell the difference between Crash and Mario.
Quote:That comment proves that you have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about when it comes to PC RPGs and adventure games. No clue at all. You constantly complain to me about saying more than you can back up with your own personal experience, and I think that here is a perfect example of the other way around. It's very sad to see you attacking whole genres with a broad stroke... especially when you then go and selectively pick out one or two games from that group that are somehow done far better even though in presentation and substance there isn't much of a difference, no matter how well versed you are in "understanding storytelling"...
Oh yeah, and I was saying almost the opposite of what you imply my meaning was, so whether you agree with my previous paragraph or not the issue is irrelevant. You took what I said and flipped the meaning around almost 180 degrees.
Your rebuttals keep on getting better and better, Brian.
How you saw that as a response to my post is beyond my comprehension. You said that BG tells a great story, while it does not. You did not address any of my points. Not one. You're just mad because deep down inside you know that what I said about you being one of those immature gaming nerds is true.