Tendo City

Why is DJ trying to become a part of this conversation when she can't even see most of my posts?

Girls...

Quote:Why is DJ trying to become a part of this conversation when she can't even see most of my posts?

Girls...

Because DJ is interested but not interested enough to un-ban you for?

Quote:Okay let me put it this way. A 2D overhead space shooter (ala Raptor or Ikaraga (or however that's spelled) has limited controls. You can go forward, backward, left, right, and fire your weapons. It's simplistic, but there it is. A 3D shooter, ala Panzar Dragoon (sans Saga), or Star Fox (sans Adventures, except some of it) has much more control, allowing you to sorta go where you may. A 3D shooter with free movement (the previous are on-rails games) allows you to actually leave the path and fly around where you want, within the borders, ala Fury 3 or Wing Commander.

I love Raptor... I'm trying to beat the game by starting a new game in hard mode and beating each sector whole (all 9 levels) without saving, but I haven't made it yet. Hard! :) But it's pitifully easy even with a new game on hard if you save, because once you get used to it the game isn't very hard at all, so it's really a good hard... even if it is really frusterating playing level one five million times. :) I think the best I've done is level six or seven. With my good game (best weapon, 8 million money, etc) I'm trying it on the third campaign but last time I was really stupid and died in mission 7... I know I can do better though. :)

... I was just playing Raptor for like an hour or two. Before that I played the last half hour or hour of King's Quest VII (great game, with a few flaws... namely, one big plot hole and some frusterating puzzles. Not the longest game, but some of those puzzles are really tough... as for the plot hole, have you played it? About halfway through. The two main characters seem like they are essentially switching locations, on the one path that goes between those points, at the same time, without seeing eachother! It makes NO SENSE! Anyway, other than that it was pretty good...).

After playing Raptor I started King's Quest I (the text-input system here isn't nearly as bad as it is in QFGII. Why? Because it's simple. Two words usually. In QFGII it is much more complex, specifically in conversations. I'll explain. In KQ you say 'Talk King'. In QFGII you say 'tell abu (or whatever his name is, QFGII is in an Arabian setting...) about yourself' or 'ask abu about Shapeir (the land)'. You have to ask SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. Without knowing WHAT YOU CAN ASK. You have to take guess by asking about things that they said in their last message... Oh, and as I suggested, in QFGII (not in I, but also in III and IV (though made easier with the graphical interface), you have to remember to greet people first. This is made tricky in the graphical games because to TELL you have to click on yourself. You're trained by adventure games to walk up to people and click on them so having to walk up to people and click on YOURSELF to be polite and raise your Communication rating takes a lot of adjusting... and then to click on them and ask questions, unless you have something to tell them or if you want to say Goodbye. Yeah, it's complex.

And in QFGII you have to do it with no list of topics to choose from. Which means that you'll miss a lot of them. Not fun, not fun at all. KQ may be a bit irritating with text-input in the way that Hugo's House of Horrors was, but it's got nothing on QFG.

As for QFGI for text-input, it's got the same problem with guessing questions but at least there isn't the aspect of having to remember about raising your Communication skill by being polite -- that was a new stat added in QFGII. :)

Er... the point. DJ, you know that you took a page to make a post you could have made in a paragraph?

Quote:Anyway, the thing about it is, the fun of an on-rails shooter, that is, what makes it fun despite it not having all the freedom of "all-range mode" through the whole game, is, in it's ENTIRETY, the limitation of your controls. For that matter, there are times when I would RATHER play a 2D shooter than a 3D. It's not that they are better, per-say, but it's a different play experience. So, I'll play Raptor because it's a very fun game in it's own right, even if it doesn't let me move up and down. In fact, if it did, it could very well ruin the game.

Going on, Metroid Prime compaired to the 2D Metroid games. I wouldn't say 3D is some inherantly better format. Prime is a great game, one of my fave in the series, but to rule out 2D completely just because you can't move Samus around in 3 dimentions, limiting your controls, would be foolish.

Now, I went through all THAT to also prove a point. Meaning, there was a goal in saying that. It was also not to talk about 3D vs 2D, because ABF, I know fully well you love 2D. Rather it was to-

I like both 2d and 3d... but I absolutely would say that each has their place and is better in some circumstances and worse in others. Like direct vs. indirect controls.

Quote:Saying every game should allow full control would completely destroy a huge part of standard RPG battle systems. It's actually HARDER to design an RPG battle system than to just allow someone to run around and hit the attack button, they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to strip you of control and make you give commands to your characters.

And now the final analogy. To remove the whole RPG battle system from RPGs because every game should allow full control of muscle movement so every single game will always be the same sort of hack and slash combat is to say "Chess sucks because it's all turn-based and you don't have full control, let's just make it FULL CONTACT CHESS" *Some idiot proceeds to throw the chess pieces at the other chess pieces.*

As you say here and said before, console RPGs give you direct control but not because there is a great reason for it... they simply do it because you are using a gamepad. If the Japanese had used computers instead of consoles in the late '80s we'd have Japanese RPGs that would be very, very similar except that they'd use mice instead. You wouldn't have to change much at all in Japanese RPGs to make them indirectly controlled, and as we've both said it would have no negative gameplay implications...

And you are absolutely correct beyond any doubt that direct control in all RPG combat would be horrible and would destroy the gameplay systems of most all RPGs that have ever been made. No question there. "Full Contact Chess" is a good analogy... :)

Quote:Because DJ is interested but not interested enough to un-ban you for?

Haha, well it's kind of like being in the middle of a three-person political debate and not being able to hear out of your left ear.

And since you're hell-bent on ignoring the last part of one of my above posts, I'll post the damn thing again for you.



I don't think you really understand my opinion on this. I'm not saying that point-and-click controls are always bad, I'm saying that they work for certain types of games and shouldn't be used in certain cases. In something like Monkey Island where you don't have direct control over the character, it could be good if the developers really ran with it. Instead of using that control style to its fullest potential they made it sort of an odd, confused mix of direct and indirect controls. So many PC games are like that. Either let the player control Guybrush directly or make it apparent that you are not fully controlling him but rather guiding him. The game already has some of those ideas, what with the interaction between yourself and the character (which further proves my point about you not controlling Guybrush directly). They could have made the game even more interesting if there was a greater emphasis on that player-Guybrush interaction, or if you just plain became him directly. Going all the way in either direction would have resulted in a better game. I still love MI though.

I was mainly just ranting actually. Considering what I've heard in the past from OB1 about RPG combat systems and how he seems to consider that gameplay style perfectly valid, I'd be hard pressed to see a couple quotes, possibly taken out of context, as a knock against the entire RPG method of combat. So, mainly that was a rant against the casual gamer who, upon watching me play an RPG like Chrono Trigger, or even NWN, says to me "you should be able to control that guy and just duck out of the way and deliver a sword blow to the back of the head right when they dive, like in Soul Calibur!", namely, the sort of casual gamer that totally misses the point of the genre.

Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted OB1, certainly that WAS a focus. I'll also add I was talking to ABF about this stuff for some time and will continue to do so :D.

Anyway, youi seem to want to discuss King's Quest, so let's go ahead and do that now since we seem to pretty much totally agree about the roll of controls in games and the fact that if every single game allowed the same full control, games would get redundant very quickly.

So then, KQ7, glad you enjoyed it. It is a fun game, though as I've said not my favorite in the series. It's kinda the Wind Waker of the series, what with the art style being controversial and the gameplay being on the easy side (though yes, there are challenging puzzles, they did take out the point system and the idea of finding really clever ways to solve puzzles rather than the "obvious" way though).

Anyway, that plot hole. At first I didn't know what you meant, but then you pointed out something I noticed myself when I first played the game :D. It's true isn't it? Rosella and Valanice really shouldn't have missed each other so utterly there. They seemed to take good care in keeping the two seperated between most chapters, but when it came to that particular point, yes, you'd think one would have seen the other wandering in the land of zombies :D. I admit it would have been a tough plot hole to stitch up, but I think it could have been handled just a little better. As it is, you just have to assume a very cartoonish "both wandering within feet of each other, but missing each other by a second" scenario :D.

King's Quest 1, which one are you playing? There are two official versions, one using the old engine and the other using the updated SCI engine made for King's Quest 4 (still used the old 16 color video cards of the time, but it was a much cleaner, higher quality, and just plain better engine, actually inspired by Japanese programmers when Ken Williams visited Japan to try selling games there and eventually got the rights to publish the PC version of Thornado (I think that's what it was called). The updated version has sound card and mouse support. The old version is a game that consists of large blocks making up each character :D. You'll know the difference :D.

But yes, the parser interface (what I've learned the text interface system is called) is pretty easy to use in KQ 1-4. I never played QFG, but I did have the pleasure of playing Laura Bow: The Colonel's Bequest (a detective adventure game, meaning you have to learn who the MURDERER is, it's fun actually, just remember, with a keen eye for details, ONE TRUTH PREVAILS). That game had a text interface as complicated as the one you describe, in conversations anyway. I could still just type "look painting", or actually even "talk lady" if I felt like it, and I'd get some basic information. But yes, to get any real progress in conversations, one had to actually keep track of a lot of information. You had to learn to type things like "tell Patricia about Clair and Robert", and then watch the fun. So, I went around picking up all sorts of info like "Wait a sec, the secret is, he isn't wheel-chair bound at all!" or "I see! So THAT'S how they got into the second balcony of a house that's nowhere near any other houses!". Fun game actually, comes with the Roberta Williams Collection which has KQ1-7, both Laura Bow games, and an assortments of Apple II games (with an emulator program so you can actually play them). Oh yes, Laura Bow 2 (The Dagger of Amen Ra) used a mouse interface (also, it is very VERY picky about the computer you run it on, KQ5 was less picky), but in order to keep you from being able to solve pretty much any conversation just by scrolling through a short list of 3 options (ala KOTOR, seriously, those "tests" people gave you were pathetic for the most part, except the murder mystery where you actually had to unlock chat options by talking with people, as it should be), instead, you got a massive number of headings you wrote in your little notebook. When you wanted to talk to someone, you had to decide exactly what to ask them about. As you can imagine, there was a lot of speech in the game :D (recorded in lovely 8 bit quality...), but it meant you actually had to solve the puzzles conversations presented, which is a good thing.

Okay, back on topic, sorta, with the KQ text interface games. Yes, you'll never really have to worry too much about forming complex sentence structure. You will still run into the annoyances of trying to think of just the right synonymn for the word you are thinking of, and yes, it is annoying when a word as simple as "bowl" manages to totally escape you during these games :D (it's like the game casts a stupidity beam out of the moniter that makes you forget half your vocabulary during the puzzles). But anyway, almost every puzzle can be solved with 2-3 word commands, so it's not too tough. Cursor is better than parser (when done right), but they did a pretty good job with KQ1-4 anyway.

Quote:Haha, well it's kind of like being in the middle of a three-person political debate and not being able to hear out of your left ear.

And since you're hell-bent on ignoring the last part of one of my above posts, I'll post the damn thing again for you.

Kinda, yeah.

Why didn't I reply to that last post? All of the responses were one line and didn't say much and I had to go anyway and didn't have time to get around to it.

Quote:I don't think you really understand my opinion on this. I'm not saying that point-and-click controls are always bad, I'm saying that they work for certain types of games and shouldn't be used in certain cases. In something like Monkey Island where you don't have direct control over the character, it could be good if the developers really ran with it. Instead of using that control style to its fullest potential they made it sort of an odd, confused mix of direct and indirect controls. So many PC games are like that. Either let the player control Guybrush directly or make it apparent that you are not fully controlling him but rather guiding him. The game already has some of those ideas, what with the interaction between yourself and the character (which further proves my point about you not controlling Guybrush directly). They could have made the game even more interesting if there was a greater emphasis on that player-Guybrush interaction, or if you just plain became him directly. Going all the way in either direction would have resulted in a better game. I still love MI though.

You sure sound like you are saying that for any single character game(and a lot of multi-character games) direct controls are always better...

As for this, I really don't know what you mean. Confused mix of direct and indirect controls in Monkey Island? Interaction between you and Guybrush? Wha? I have no idea what you mean by that...

Quote:I was mainly just ranting actually. Considering what I've heard in the past from OB1 about RPG combat systems and how he seems to consider that gameplay style perfectly valid, I'd be hard pressed to see a couple quotes, possibly taken out of context, as a knock against the entire RPG method of combat. So, mainly that was a rant against the casual gamer who, upon watching me play an RPG like Chrono Trigger, or even NWN, says to me "you should be able to control that guy and just duck out of the way and deliver a sword blow to the back of the head right when they dive, like in Soul Calibur!", namely, the sort of casual gamer that totally misses the point of the genre.

I'm honestly not sure what OB1 thinks of it... seems to me to be somewhat conflicting messages. Explanations, OB1?

Quote:So then, KQ7, glad you enjoyed it. It is a fun game, though as I've said not my favorite in the series. It's kinda the Wind Waker of the series, what with the art style being controversial and the gameplay being on the easy side (though yes, there are challenging puzzles, they did take out the point system and the idea of finding really clever ways to solve puzzles rather than the "obvious" way though).

We'd had the game for some years now but I'd never managed to get through that stupid desert... as I said, some of the puzzles are really hard! Especially at the very beginning. Easy? Hmm... short, perhaps. Though not overly so -- Sierra adventure games are generally not particularly long, after all. But easy... parts maybe, but the annoyingly hard puzzles are what I remember much more. :) As for the art style, I think it's fine... I know 'too cartoonish' is a complaint about it but honestly I think that that's not valid for the KQ series. I mean... look at it! Even KQ1 with its 16 color EGA obviously is trying to be cartoonish, not to mention KQ5, the first 256 color title... yes, this one is a bit more so, but both of the other games in the series that I have played are only limited by what their graphics can show on that category.

On that subject, QFGV. I'm not too far, but already it is proving to be both great looking (for a game that came out in 1990 it's extremely impressive!) and very frusterating. I hate those 'wander around in a wilderness, die every eight screens, and hope that you run into the randomly placed thing you need to find' areas! And I've heard this game has not just this one but three of them... ick! Anyway, I'm not too far, but it definitely seems to be challenging. Or annoying at least. Oh well. It also proves again how the KQ series is simple... such simple conversations! Only click and talk and maybe use an item on them. I definitely prefer true conversation trees like in Quest for Glory or (though not quite as deep perhaps, it's also definitely got them) Space Quest. Makes it easy, but conversations are a fun part of these games and I wish that there was more interactivity...

Oh, and I know I've said it before, but if EcoQuest and Quest for Glory IV can be CD games with speech AND have the option for text boxes as well as speech, why can't KQV and KQVII?

Quote:Anyway, that plot hole. At first I didn't know what you meant, but then you pointed out something I noticed myself when I first played the game . It's true isn't it? Rosella and Valanice really shouldn't have missed each other so utterly there. They seemed to take good care in keeping the two seperated between most chapters, but when it came to that particular point, yes, you'd think one would have seen the other wandering in the land of zombies . I admit it would have been a tough plot hole to stitch up, but I think it could have been handled just a little better. As it is, you just have to assume a very cartoonish "both wandering within feet of each other, but missing each other by a second" scenario

Rosella is in Ooga Booga. Valanice is in Falderal (I think that's the town...). The only way between the places is though the werewolf wood and the forest. They go through the same place at the same time and the game gives no hint that this happened (I mean, even a scene with some stupid excuse for why they missed eachother would be great!), yet through other things makes it clear that it did -- Rosella had just left Ooga Booga recently. Same for Valanice in Falderal. But it completely ignores this... it really bugged me. Minor plot holes I can ignore, but when it's a major, gaping one that has significant plot implications it really annoys me... like in the movie 'Minority Report' where he uses that eye to get into the building at the climactic part near the end. There is no way that in such a futuristic society that they would have still had that eye's security enabled! He should never have been able to get in that way! ... anyway, it was really annoying.

Quote:King's Quest 1, which one are you playing? There are two official versions, one using the old engine and the other using the updated SCI engine made for King's Quest 4 (still used the old 16 color video cards of the time, but it was a much cleaner, higher quality, and just plain better engine, actually inspired by Japanese programmers when Ken Williams visited Japan to try selling games there and eventually got the rights to publish the PC version of Thornado (I think that's what it was called). The updated version has sound card and mouse support. The old version is a game that consists of large blocks making up each character . You'll know the difference .

I thought it was the updated version... it's from the PC Gamer Classic Games Collection issue. From the King's Quest Collection I thought. But it's 16 color EGA with only PC Speaker sound and no mouse support, so maybe not...

Oh, and the game you are thinking of is Thexder, DJ. Thornado is that cancelled Turrican-style sequel, remember? They also did Lode Runner, by the way... I believe that that is also Japanese.

Quote:Okay, back on topic, sorta, with the KQ text interface games. Yes, you'll never really have to worry too much about forming complex sentence structure. You will still run into the annoyances of trying to think of just the right synonymn for the word you are thinking of, and yes, it is annoying when a word as simple as "bowl" manages to totally escape you during these games (it's like the game casts a stupidity beam out of the moniter that makes you forget half your vocabulary during the puzzles). But anyway, almost every puzzle can be solved with 2-3 word commands, so it's not too tough. Cursor is better than parser (when done right), but they did a pretty good job with KQ1-4 anyway.

No, the job they did is the same. KQ games are just extremely simple. You just talk to people to get all the details or use an item on them to get them to react to that item. That's it. Very simple, so the parser works okay because it doesn't have to do a very detailed system... it's once you have much more complex titles like QFG that, in my opinion, the system really fails.

Quote:But yes, the parser interface (what I've learned the text interface system is called) is pretty easy to use in KQ 1-4. I never played QFG, but I did have the pleasure of playing Laura Bow: The Colonel's Bequest (a detective adventure game, meaning you have to learn who the MURDERER is, it's fun actually, just remember, with a keen eye for details, ONE TRUTH PREVAILS). That game had a text interface as complicated as the one you describe, in conversations anyway. I could still just type "look painting", or actually even "talk lady" if I felt like it, and I'd get some basic information. But yes, to get any real progress in conversations, one had to actually keep track of a lot of information. You had to learn to type things like "tell Patricia about Clair and Robert", and then watch the fun. So, I went around picking up all sorts of info like "Wait a sec, the secret is, he isn't wheel-chair bound at all!" or "I see! So THAT'S how they got into the second balcony of a house that's nowhere near any other houses!". Fun game actually, comes with the Roberta Williams Collection which has KQ1-7, both Laura Bow games, and an assortments of Apple II games (with an emulator program so you can actually play them). Oh yes, Laura Bow 2 (The Dagger of Amen Ra) used a mouse interface (also, it is very VERY picky about the computer you run it on, KQ5 was less picky), but in order to keep you from being able to solve pretty much any conversation just by scrolling through a short list of 3 options (ala KOTOR, seriously, those "tests" people gave you were pathetic for the most part, except the murder mystery where you actually had to unlock chat options by talking with people, as it should be), instead, you got a massive number of headings you wrote in your little notebook. When you wanted to talk to someone, you had to decide exactly what to ask them about. As you can imagine, there was a lot of speech in the game (recorded in lovely 8 bit quality...), but it meant you actually had to solve the puzzles conversations presented, which is a good thing.

Ah, but do you have to remember to TELL (clicking on you) PERSON HELLO and TELL PERSON GOODBYE in order to boost your communication skill, which gives you various advantages across the series? And the QFG games also usually have a lot of things to talk to people about... just in the 'ASK' category (clicking on them) there is often six or eight different things to say when you meet someone. And some of those bring up sub-categories. And as the game progresses you will see plenty of new options with a lot of the characters, especially in the later games in the series (see, QFG games don't have epic quests in the sense that you progress from one land to another -- each of the games is set in one land. There is one town, and surrounding areas. You explore and solve puzzles and fight monsters, but it's all done in one area... so you will find yourself returning to characters frequently. As I've said, the first game is simpler in regards to some of these things but it's got plenty of depth too... there is just less of returning to characters to get totally new dialogue trees unless a major event has happened.

Seriously, finding that used copy of the QFG collection this summer... best thing I've gotten in years and it's got three games in it that I've wanted for a really long time. Especially QFGIV, which I am now playing and is every bit as fantastic as I was expecting. I was expecting it to be great and it really is... QFGIII I was expecting to be good but not as great and that's how I felt about that one too. Okay, maybe my expectations shaped it somewhat, but that's what I think. :) QFGII looks incredible if not for parser conversation guessing.

Quote:Why didn't I reply to that last post? All of the responses were one line and didn't say much and I had to go anyway and didn't have time to get around to it.

Lame excuse! You had plenty of time.

Quote:You sure sound like you are saying that for any single character game(and a lot of multi-character games) direct controls are always better...

As for this, I really don't know what you mean. Confused mix of direct and indirect controls in Monkey Island? Interaction between you and Guybrush? Wha? I have no idea what you mean by that...

Well unless we talk in person I don't think you ever will. I admit, it's a pretty complicated explanation for what it a relatively simple concept.

Quote:I'm honestly not sure what OB1 thinks of it... seems to me to be somewhat conflicting messages. Explanations, OB1?

Uh, I have to explain an opinion that DJ basically made up because she's not reading my entire posts and makes assumptions based off of a few out-of-context sentences? Right...


And speaking of King's Quest, that series had the worst puzzles ever. It really did. They had these things that made no logical sense whatsoever, like putting jell-o on the ground so that a swamp monster will come out and eat it which will then let you read a poem to it so that it falls asleep and leaves behind goggles that allow you entrance into a cave. And then there were times that you would eat something like a pie which you realized was need later on in the game so that you can throw it in a monster's face in order to unlock the secret passage to the bathroom of spells which gave you the magic potion needed to defeat the dragon. But if you ate the damn pie you were screwed! I hate retarded, nonsensical puzzles like that.

Aside from having to always remember to introduce yourself and say goodbye (and no, you never have to click on yourself to start a conversation), that about describes the Laura Bow games. Yep, there are a whole lot of conversations trees and many many topics to pick from when talking with someone. Just about every single thing you do becomes a topic heading, as well as every item you pick up.

About KQ7. Yes, I remember that part with going through those woods. Indeed, it's hard to imagine how they missed each other. However, Valanice was a weird creature at the time... This brings up something else, both of them have to defeat the same enemy on their own terms. That's a bit odd...

Anyway, about the art style. Roberta always made it clear this was supposed to be a fantasy story, the lighthearted kind. The series isn't a comedy, though it has it's moments (this is why people who judge the game based on how good or bad the jokes are... suck), it's a serious story, especially KQ4 and KQ6, but told in a lighthearted way. KQ7 is the most Disney-like of all of them, and has the art style to match. It is markedly different from KQ5's style though. If you play KQ6, you'll see when the characters talk to each other, the profiles of them that come up showing them talking are in "super VGA". They kept the same art style as those two games. Certainly it was always meant to look animated, but KQ6 picked a different art style. Anyway, yeah, for the technology they had making each game, I'd say the art style fits just fine. It's just too bad KQ8 had to be the lowest common denominator, turning the series into a hack and slash adventure game with arse controls, really poor graphics AND art style, and a story that has potential but was executed VERY poorly. I mean, one of the three legendary artifacts doesn't even DO anything at the end of the game. (Really, the main problem was the puzzles were an afterthought and all the battles were pathetically easy AND pathetically boring. I guess the main problem then would be the WHOLE GAME.) I think Roberta had to have been forced to make the game like that, because honestly this goes against what she said she would NEVER do to the series. It would be like if the next Zelda game suddenly starred Link McButchington, the bad arse punk rocker who's going to hell to kill all the demons personally, with the Master Machinegun and his wacky but annoying sidekick, Lemonfresh the arabian thief who you just know is going to betray him in the end, but Link will kill him without a second thought and it won't affect him at all.

Anyway, about the text thing, yeah we both discussed that before and agreed. Pretty much, they really could have and should have put a text+speech option in there, but it was early on in making these kinds of games or something so, at the time, they just didn't realize people would want such a thing. KQ7 doesn't have any text at all though. I mean, it's not really NEEDED, unless you happen to be deaf, but it's a nice bonus when you keep thinking someone said "twice the fencepost" and you have to read what they actually said.

About KQ1, since you apparently have no mouse support and PC speaker sound, yes it's the older one. The updated one still used EGA, but it used it MUCH better and nearly convinced me it was using more than 16 colors, but it wasn't. Actually, after remaking KQ1, the fans revolted because they said it was like colorizing old black and white movies. Honestly, I think those people need to get a grip :D. Point is, in all the collections now, they contain both the original KQ1 and the remade version, which I'm all for.

And yes, I was thinking of Thexder :D. I know I have a disk with that SOMEWHERE, but I have no idea if my computer will be able to play it without going WAY too fast... I know that game was frickin' HARD though :D.

Quote:Well unless we talk in person I don't think you ever will. I admit, it's a pretty complicated explanation for what it a relatively simple concept.

You can't try to explain it more understandably? If it's important to your case... and that paragraph really doesn't make much sense.

Quote:Uh, I have to explain an opinion that DJ basically made up because she's not reading my entire posts and makes assumptions based off of a few out-of-context sentences? Right...

I think I had said something similar...

Quote:And speaking of King's Quest, that series had the worst puzzles ever. It really did. They had these things that made no logical sense whatsoever, like putting jell-o on the ground so that a swamp monster will come out and eat it which will then let you read a poem to it so that it falls asleep and leaves behind goggles that allow you entrance into a cave. And then there were times that you would eat something like a pie which you realized was need later on in the game so that you can throw it in a monster's face in order to unlock the secret passage to the bathroom of spells which gave you the magic potion needed to defeat the dragon. But if you ate the damn pie you were screwed! I hate retarded, nonsensical puzzles like that.

Adventure game puzzles and logic do not always connect. Hopefully they do, but just as often they don't make much sense at all... which makes the games hard and irritating at times. Still, I love the genre.

But some simple logic applies. Don't do anything to jeopradize inventory items without saving recently so that if nothing happens you can load because in general there is not a useless inventory item. Similarly don't drop items, if the game allows it. :)

Quote:Aside from having to always remember to introduce yourself and say goodbye (and no, you never have to click on yourself to start a conversation), that about describes the Laura Bow games. Yep, there are a whole lot of conversations trees and many many topics to pick from when talking with someone. Just about every single thing you do becomes a topic heading, as well as every item you pick up.

Click on yourself in the graphical interface games; use 'tell' instead of 'ask' for the text-input ones. And that's just for QFGII-IV; I and V don't have it, really.

It's kind of annoying for a while and takes time to get used to, but you are playing a role so it's really cool that it lets you choose between being polite or not polite. :)

Granted there isn't much benifit, I think, to not being polite, but it's still cool.

Quote:About KQ7. Yes, I remember that part with going through those woods. Indeed, it's hard to imagine how they missed each other. However, Valanice was a weird creature at the time... This brings up something else, both of them have to defeat the same enemy on their own terms. That's a bit odd...

That also was idiotic. It's gone! Valanice would have to pass first because Rosella got rid of the thing... eh, it's not really explainable. As I said, huge plot hole.

Quote:Anyway, about the art style. Roberta always made it clear this was supposed to be a fantasy story, the lighthearted kind. The series isn't a comedy, though it has it's moments (this is why people who judge the game based on how good or bad the jokes are... suck), it's a serious story, especially KQ4 and KQ6, but told in a lighthearted way. KQ7 is the most Disney-like of all of them, and has the art style to match. It is markedly different from KQ5's style though. If you play KQ6, you'll see when the characters talk to each other, the profiles of them that come up showing them talking are in "super VGA". They kept the same art style as those two games. Certainly it was always meant to look animated, but KQ6 picked a different art style. Anyway, yeah, for the technology they had making each game, I'd say the art style fits just fine.

Yes, KQV's cartoonish is different from KQ7's cartoonish, but both have very identifiably cartoonish graphical styles... it's not exactly a surprise in the series so I don't really get why people were so annoyed. As for the song in the intro, KQV has songs in the game as well...

As for the engines, Sierra tended to use engines for many games once they made them. KQV's is also in KQVI, SQV, QFGI (Remake), III, and IV (though for QFG it's heavily modified), several of the LSL games, EcoQuest, the first two Dr. Brain games, etc...

Quote:Anyway, about the text thing, yeah we both discussed that before and agreed. Pretty much, they really could have and should have put a text+speech option in there, but it was early on in making these kinds of games or something so, at the time, they just didn't realize people would want such a thing. KQ7 doesn't have any text at all though. I mean, it's not really NEEDED, unless you happen to be deaf, but it's a nice bonus when you keep thinking someone said "twice the fencepost" and you have to read what they actually said.

No, I didn't agree with that! They definitely realized that it could be good... how else can I explain two of my four CD Sierra games including text and speech? And is it just cooincidence that the two without it are both King's Quest?

On that note, did Torin's Passage have text? I know it used the KQVII engine (SQVI used similar graphics, but had a more traditional Sierra interface with multiple buttons), so I'd be interested to know if it added text boxes or not.


On the topic of Quest for Glory, there are two different collections. There is the QFG Anthology and the QFG Collection. The difference is that the Anthology is older. It does not include the (awesome!) Quest for Glory V Soundtrack CD. It also doesn't have the newer, cooler looking icons for the games... I don't know about content though. But just for the soundtrack CD I'd definitely recommend the Collection.

Quote:You can't try to explain it more understandably? If it's important to your case... and that paragraph really doesn't make much sense.

It's a lot easier to explain vocally. The paragraph makes sense if you have a rough idea of what I'm talking about.

Quote:I think I had said something similar...

No, you didn't. That's not even remotely close to what we were talking about.

Quote:Adventure game puzzles and logic do not always connect. Hopefully they do, but just as often they don't make much sense at all... which makes the games hard and irritating at times. Still, I love the genre.

But some simple logic applies. Don't do anything to jeopradize inventory items without saving recently so that if nothing happens you can load because in general there is not a useless inventory item. Similarly don't drop items, if the game allows it.

There's no consistent logic in most of those games, and you have to use abstract thinking in a world full of arbitrary rules.

Puzzles can make perfect sense and still be challenging. Look at any of the Zelda games where you're faced with a tough puzzle and after you've figured it out you go "oh yeah, why didn't I think of that before??".

As I said, the 3rd maze actually is a puzzle you can solve with the power of logic. The first two though, those are annoying and just not right.

Sierra's adventure games are great but they are marred at times by these irritatingly hard puzzles... in Space Quest V there are a couple of absurdly hard puzzles that make getting through it quite challenging. One is where you beam down to this planet and are chased by a robot that wants to kill you... you need to do exactly the right thing in where to go or you die... so frusterating. I needed a FAQ for that one. And then there's the "puzzle" where you go EVA in a suit with about five seconds of air to rescue this guy... ignoring the severe speed problems (impossible to finish without slowdown, fix patches, or both), it's still stupidly hard. I still can't do it...

Wow, I've only played SQ1 and the SQ6 demo (where hilarious borg parodies invade to turn everyone into... ORANGE SORBE!). That sounds annoying.

Meanwhile, I've been playing some various adventure games. I've been playing Syberia, which is a very fun game that has a pretty engaging story, and certainly isn't like Myst at all (standard item collection as opposed to hint collecting, though that plays a part too).

I think after this I'm going to play Police Quest. I never did finish that game... The main problem is I only have the floppy disk for it, well had, I'm not sure if it's anywhere to be found by now. Anyway, I got it used and without the "Police Handbook" that apparently came with it. So, every now and then I get these important things that involve "obeying the policeman's handbook to a T". Kinda hard to do without that thing... It's fortunate that in the case of arresting some drunk idiot, I had the advantage of common sense. I knew to handcuff the arms behind him, NOT in front, and to make sure my gun was not on me when escorting him about so that he couldn't possibly steal it. The only problem is, from what I remember, I'm totally stuck over at the cells trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do next to get him imprisoned and me out of there without something going horribly wrong.

It's more annoying because other than those two puzzles SQV is a fantastic game... really funny, of course, great setting, even a creative use of the password protection (coordinates to warp to star systems as you progress, printed in the manual)... the first puzzle at least is solvable once you know what you're doing, but that second one... ack. I gave up on it because of the tight time limit and frusterating controls that make it so hard.

As for Police Quest, never played those... but that sounds like a protection feature to me. Like the system cooridates in SQV? :) On that note, Quest for Glory IV has a very strange protection system... the first three didn't have any, first. And in this one it's only for formulas for potions. Now, the health and poison cure potions are extremely useful in the game, and there is one other kind of potion you must have to progress at one point. But you can play a LOT of the game without them if you really wanted to... seems like a somewhat innefective system. I mean, Space Quest V lets you get a few hours in, but then you simply cannot progress without the manual. That seems like a better idea.

Syberia. I've mentioned before that I've played that game's demo. It was alright, but (repeating myself here) I found the environments quite sterile and non-interactive, and some of the people seemed there just to be roadblocks and not real characters. A decent adventure game, but the demo didn't really make me want to buy it. Myst... yes, the sterile, non-interactive world did make me think of Myst some... and IMO that isn't a particularly good thing.

But if you want to play a REAL great (somewhat recent) adventure game just go to http://www.longestjourney.com and download the demo. Really. Do it now. If you haven't played it before that is... I know I've mentioned this game many times, but it really is the best adventure game I've played since the Lucasarts ones. The demo gives a pretty good taste of the game, too... not length, I mean, but in what the game's like. Though obviously the full game has a whole lot more to it. :)

Will do, I keep forgetting about that :D.

Now then, yes, it IS copyright protection. It's very obvious that's what it's for. I think it's a great use of it though, dragging you into the real world to find solutions. Ya know, Metal Gear Solid (both versions) did the same thing. "Look on the back of the package." :D Sucks to be someone without the package...

As I've said before, KQ3 and KQ6 also used creative and actually fun copyright protection. As I said, KQ3 has translated text of the wizard's mysterious spell tome which you have to read to know how to perform spells. KQ6 has the "Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles" which gives you a LOT of background information about the land you visit in the game that you need to solve an assortment of puzzles. KQ4 was much less creative, that one was a standard "What is the 5th word of the 3rd paragraph of Tip #4 in the section "Tips For New Adventure Players"? Hardly fun at all...

Actually, older versions of KQ5 had an odd one. In all the KQ5 booklets, there is a legend of the alphabet for the land you visit in the game. This is only pointless trivia unless you are playing the original floppy disk version. In that version, randomly you would be assaulted by the "Sierra Copyright Protection Squad", who would order you to translate a phrase they would present to you if you wanted to continue. I never had that version, but read about it in the manuel explaining why that alphabet existed, and then saying they only included it for posterity.

Anyway, as far as copyright protection schemes go, those old ones are plainly easy to defeat thanks to GameFAQs these days. However, at least Sierra made them fun enough that the reason they were there didn't really even matter.

As far as Metal Gear Solid though, honestly I'm not sure copyright protection was even in mind for that one, just more of a literal thinking outside the box thing I guess.

I know you keep forgetting... so how about clicking the link and at least bookmarking it? It is a truly great game that no adventure game fan should miss.

Copyright protection... at least in the KQV CD version they removed it! They forgot to do that for QFGIV... it's not a big problem as all you have to do is get three formulas from a list (and not all at the same time), but it's an annoyance worth mentioning anyway.

Yeah, I have several games with the standard 'word x from paragraph y of page z' (including The Lost Vikings and Castles I)... it works, but it's definitely a boring form of protection. It's great that Sierra was more inventive. However, as you say it doesn't do much for protection when you can just get a list... that's where codewheels come in. You know, line up the two or three wheels and type in the number... THOSE are extremely hard to break without a copy of the wheel. Breaking protection in those games involves cracking the game so that it doesn't need the codes anymore...

I still think a lot of Sierra's games handled copyright protection in the best way, for me the consumer anyway :D.

I did click the link you know, which was WRONG, so I googled it and found the right <a href="http://www.longestjourney.com">site</a>, and I downloaded the demo, and I installed it.

And then I ran it...

And then the opening movie...

And then the demo crashed...

So um, sorry aside from seeing a grand ship taking off to sea, I haven't been able to play that game yet :D.

Look at my post, I fixed the address about ten seconds after making the post...

As for technical issues, I don't know. Runs fine on my computer. Uh, all I can think of is maybe it has issues with XP... I don't know...

I managed to get it to work after messing with a few options (compatibility mode wasn't one of them). Okay, I was on the ship, I solved a total of two puzzles, then I accidently sank it (that was the only thing I could do, there are only 3 rooms here after all) and after watching the ship sink, the demo went back to the main menu.

Is that all the demo has to offer? It really doesn't give a good taste of the game at all... Honestly, judging ONLY from the demo, I couldn't justify getting this game. I suppose demos just aren't meant for adventure games... Anyway, from the way you describe it, I imagine there's a lot more to this game than that. I didn't really get a good plot description though. I picked up that my main character is trying to restore the balance between magic and science which is apparently out of wack between two different worlds. That's it though. Is my character from the present day, or is this game a comedy? Honestly, I couldn't tell from what little there was.

If you have played the demo, is it really this short or was that some odd glitch?

Anyway, if you say this is an amazing game, I'll get it along with, eventually, Planescape. You gotta give Syberia another try though. It really is a fun game, despite what little you may have seen in the demo. In fact, I think I'll give that demo a try myself just to see what you saw.

(Oh, is there a Planescape demo?)

You guys still talking about nerd stuff?

Okay, I finished that Syberia demo, and it's as disappointing as the Longer Journey demo. You played the very first part of the game, before even getting to some REAL puzzles. No wonder you don't have high opinions of it. Don't worry, those are the "warm-ups". The rest of the game from leaving the notory's office on (well, just about, there's a couple obvious stuff after that I think) is much more interesting and there's plenty to do. Plus, it has a great artistic style and a good story. Actually, I'm currently stuck.

So, have ya played The Longest Journey demo yourself? Is it really supposed to be that short? Is that a bad representation of the game as I assume it to be?

Planescape has no demo. Just like all of the other Infinity engine titles actually... none of those five games have (free) demos. I don't know why, but it's an unfortunate fact...

As for that demo, yeah, it's just that one very short chapter where you sink the boat. And yes, I have played it... I played it before getting the game. Though it wasn't the demo that convinced me to get the game, it was the reviews (and how high they all were). It's the demo, they say, because it's easily the shortest chapter in the game... you talk to a few people (it makes April look kind of foolish with how she acts with the captain, but it makes more sense once you play the game and realize the whole 'two worlds' thing... see, there are two worlds (two earths kind of), Stark and Arcadia, and one has technology and the other magic. There is a deep story behind it but that much you get from the back of the box. That chapter (7) is on Arcadia; April is from Stark. Sure she's been there for a little while, but not on the ocean... but I'm still not sure if she's being annoying on purpose (to bug that captain) or by accident. Oh well. :)

Um, I do forget a bit about the demo. Does it start on the ship or somewhere else? Was it just the ship? I can't quite remember... but either way, the problem about the story is that the demo is NOT the beginning of the game. It's pretty much in the middle. So the story won't make sense. Why is she on this ship? Which world is she on (though that should be obvious it isn't stated)? It's quite unclear. As you say, the story as far as the demo goes is confusing... but it should be, given where in the game it i (and how they just chopped out a section of the game instead of making a new demo, and the demo isn't even the beginning!).

As for whether the game is serious or humorous, kind of like a Lucasarts game it's both. That is, it's got a definitely serious story and a deep plot on the one hand. It's also a quite long game -- 30 hours minimum. With a lot of conversations. And it's serious to a large extent... but the game also definitely has a sense of humor, especially in the character of April (she can be pretty funny at times). The idea is that she's the 'average person who is called to do extrodinary things'. Cliche sure, but well presented and deep. Now, IMO anyway in the demo she just comes off as either clueless or annoying, but overall it's a lot better than that... and even that makes more sense with the background information (like how hard it was to convince that guy to make the voyage).

But anyway, I really bought it because of the universal acclaim, not the (decent but not fantastic) demo. I haven't finished it.. I'm not stuck exactly, but it's a tough (logic) puzzle that will take time to solve (and involves wandering all over this island) and I just haven't gotten around to getting myself to do it.

But it's still better than that pitiful Syberia demo, that's for sure... actually, most adventure games don't seem to have demos or they have very short ones. Ever play the Curse of Monkey Island demo? Extremely short! As for the TLJ demo, what it does tell you is that this is a typical point-and-click adventure game with a decent interface, nice backgrounds, and dated polyagonal character models. And a lot of walking around with items trying them on things and talking to people.

Finally, if you have to choose between this and Torment Torment wins. ... but that shouldn't surprise you, I put Torment very high in my top 10...

Nope, it starts right on the ship. Honestly though, the demo really isn't that good to me. Maybe it's better in retrospect, knowing what you know about the game, or something... Anyway, if you say it's that good, I'll pick it up if I happen to see it one day and have the money.

And I will say this, trust me, Syberia is a lot better than what the pidly demo revealed.

And um, I didn't see a single bit of seriousness in either Monkey Island game :D.

Monkey Island, no. :) ... okay, this game is more serious than most Lucasarts adventures. But it definitely has a sense of humor as well... Grim Fandango was kind of like that too. Except completely different. :D ... I don't know, it just reminded me some of a Lucasarts adventure game...

I think the main reasons someone might be dissapointed with the game is if they wanted it to innovate (it doesn't.) or if you can't get past the not too nice looking polyagonal character models... I'm not saying that this is the best adventure game ever or something, it's not, but it's better than anything else I've played from the last five years.

Syberia... after playing the demo I wrote it off, I will say that. Struck me as a 'pretty but with no interaction' game like Myst where it kind of feels like your character is only kind of actually there... with things I said like how the conversations seemed placeholders or just blocks, little looking or interacting with the environment, etc... maybe it gets better later though. If I see it for cheap I guess I should think about picking it up... not like anything better has come out since, after all.

Yeah, I think you can get it for $10 now, I think.

I have no issues with the graphics, it does look adventury, which is all I really need. If it's fun, it doesn't really need to innovate much at all. After all, I've blindly loved the Megaman series for years despite a lack of any decent level of gameplay updating to date.

One could say that Mega Man is good BECAUSE it doesn't change very much, actually... when they have done more changes it has been of mixed success, generally.

But yes, if you expect a classic adventure game this is it. It's got the eye to click on things and get (often humorous) descriptions (something some Sierra adventures do well (Quest for Glory, Space Quest) and others (King's Quest) do not to as well, but all Lucasarts adventures do well), no death (like Lucasarts), the mix of serious story and humor like some of the Lucasarts games...

If you want a negative other than 'no innovation', the best would probably be volume of conversations. There are a lot of them and they can be quite long and people who don't like that probably wouldn't like this game that much... mostly I have liked it, but I'll admit that in a few cases maybe it is a bit long. Not to a degree where it becomes a problem though. And anyway, if you don't like conversations you probably aren't playing traditional adventure games, you're playing Myst-styled puzzle 'adventure' games...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/10/01/...09473.html

On the subject of adventure games, the guys who were making the cancelled Sam & Max title for Lucasarts left the company and have set up a new one for the purpose of making adventure games... awesome! Read, it's got a nice interview there too.

Cool!

Yes!