Tendo City

Quote:In a recent interview Ubisoft confirmed that there will be another two Beyond Good & Evil games, making the series into a trilogy.

Apparently the ending for the first game was left rather ambiguous because they had planned on carrying on the story, good news for all Beyond Good & Evil fans.

I can't believe at didn't sell very well, it was a very original game and it was crazy-fun! It's good to know that they're making more anyway.

Cube-Europe

I got really excited about this before I read the source interview (which does not say anything about Ubi Soft making another BG&E), and realized that's it from Cube-Europe.

Damn Cube-Europe for getting my hopes up. :(

Yeah, Cube-Europe isn't exactly the most trustworthy news source, for sure...

Though, they should make a sequel. Hopefully they can fix the things that were wrong with the first game. :) BG&E has a lot of promise, but wasn't quite there...

edit: Dojo is saying it too.

http://www.nintendojo.com/infocus/view_i...1091126082

Ah, here we go... the source. In French, unfortunately... but it looks like an interview with Ancel. I wonder when we'll get a translation somewhere... :)

http://www.oteragame.fr/dossier.php?dossier_id=15

I just bought this game today, I haven't even started it up yet, I intend to later. I've heard it's a really good game and I kept meaning to get it but it's a bit tough to find. I managed to get the last copy at my GameStop. :D

I'm interested if people think it's as stellar as OB1 does or as a great game which doesn't quite deserve all of the accolades it has gotten like I do...

edit: Yeah, this looks more likely (BG&E). Click.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/534/534566p1.html

This looks like what happened. Unsurprising, given Cube-Europe...

But I'd still like to see that interview in English. :)

Quote:RUMOR #4: Ubisoft is making two more Beyond and Good and Evil games.

Source: The devout flock of Mario worshippers at GameCube Europe.

The official story: "No comment." --Ubisoft rep.

What we heard: When Beyond Good and Evil was released last year, it got solid reviews, but was discounted to just $19.99 within months due to disappointing sales. So when GameCube Europe reported that "Ubisoft does not plan on letting Beyond Good and Evil fade away and has announced there will be another two games," many reacted with skepticism. Rightly so, as it turns out. Though GameCube Europe story makes it sound like it was taken from an official Ubisoft statement, it lists a Q&A with BG&E designer Michel Ancel on the French site OteraGame as its source. In said Q&A, Ancel discussed the abruptness of BG&E's ending, saying it was because the game was "the first episode of a trilogy." He made no mention of any concrete plans to make a sequel to the game, let alone two. Any further ambiguity was dispelled by informed sources who told GameSpot that no BG&E games are currently in Ubisoft's pipeline. "Sounds like wishful thinking on the fans' part," they said.

Bogus or not bogus?: C'est bogus.

How about another rumor? The N5 Gyro Controller!

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?a...330&page=2

Yeah this is definitely BS. Too bad, too, since it was one of the best games of last year.

Don't listen to ABF, Edenmaster. You know how bad his taste is. Loves crap like Cruisin' and Rush, dislikes great games like GT and BG&E. And most reviewers agree that it's an awesome game: http://gamerankings.com/itemrankings/itemsearch.asp

Gran Turismo? I've played it for five minuites at most so of course I won't say what I think of it. All I can say is that I generally don't like more realistic racing games like that as much as I do more arcadish ones.

Rush, yes I think is awesome. So do plenty of other people. It is a very popular series...

As for Cruis'n, I REALLY think I've discussed those games enough. You clearly do not care about being accurate.

Many of the things I've mentioned about this game showed up in multiple reviews that I read. It's not just me... you'd love to pretend that it is, but it won't work because it's not. Sorry.

Average scores in the mid 80s isn't a problem-free title, OB1! 84% average for PC, 87-88 for consoles.

http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/56143...%20%20evil
http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/56164...%20%20evil
http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/56164...%20%20evil
http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/56164...%20%20evil

If I remember correctly, when we argued about this before your defence was more about how none of my complaints mattered than it was about how they were actually wrong... would you like me to go over the list again?

I didn't finish the game, but not because it's too hard. I didn't finish because I got tired of how simplistic the story is, mostly... as well as a few other things, but that's the big one, and key in a game like this which is so much about story.

Of course it's not a problem-free game, only one or two games ever made are problem-free. But it is of the finest titles of last year, and most of your complaints are ridiculous considering your crappy taste in games. You call the gameplay simple, yet you like shit like Cruisin' and Gauntlet. You call the story simple (despite how incredibly well-executed it is), yet you enjoy the generic stories of so many PC games. You're not consistent with your views.

Curse you, Cube-Europe! I got my hopes up for nothing!!

BG&E is of course a lot better than Cruis'n. Gauntlet? Hmm... that's tough. Gauntlet is more pure fun, but BG&E tries to do a lot more... that is harder.

And you only can think that PC RPG stories are simple if you either have the worst luck with finding good games or have no concept of not having stories always spoon-fed to you... but we're talking about this on MSN. I'm quite interested in what other people here think about the subject but it'd be hard to explain...

In short, I think that it is good for a story to be complex in its presentation to the user. Metroid Prime has a great story, and the fact that you have to look for it to find it does not in the least hurt it. It has a lot of depth, that could not be shown in any form other than text, and the way it slowly reveals things to you and you slowly begin to understand the full picture of the game's story is a great storytelling method that keeps up interest in people who care and lets people who don't just ignore it. I think it was a much better way of telling that story than having to cut out a large portion of it and putting it in as a linear game story that gets told to you one chunk at a time as you progress (with cutscenes or something). Yes, you have to actively look for story objects to get the story, but it isn't hard to do and it allowed for so much more story depth than they otherwise could have told...

OB1 thinks it has an awful story, but that's okay because they weren't trying to tell a good story anyway... you shouldn't randomly tell facts out of order in little bits. Bad storytelling method (but I'm sure you can explain it better OB1...).

I'm about an hour and a half into BG&E and I must say I'm having a great time with it. It's refreshing to play a game with more to it than run, climb, and fight. The puzzles, thus far, are pretty straightforward, but the voice acting and lip syncing are good, and the graphics are very smooth and detailed. I'm trying to get over the Telemundo dude that holds my stuff, and the rastafarian rhinos, but other than that, I'm enjoying this game very much.

The graphics are very nice, the artwork is great (of coursez -- it IS French, after all... :)), and yes, it isn't just a standard platformer. Or action-adventure. It's also fun. :)

Oh, why don't I just list the flaws I think are in the game again.

Simplistic combat -- it's not awful, but it is quite easy and there is a lot of it for that level of simplicity. But it's entertaining so this is not a big problem. The dungeons are fun most of the time. But I wish that the combat was both more complex and more challenging. Either, or preferably both. There have been just a couple of times when it's actually been a challenge and those have been some of the more fun parts of the game... I wish more enemies were tough. Sadly few seem to be. It's definitely a missed opportunity. Like with all of these.

Simple story. Big issue, IMO. It seems to just not be like a real world. In a real world, no totalitarian government would ever allow the kinds of shows of opposition and resistance that this one seems to ignore! The protesters seem a nice touch, but they seem to just leave them there... even if they round them up later in the story, it should be the way it would be in reality. Crushed as soon as possible. On a similar note, the resistance. It seems absurdly easy to get in to... I'd think that the network would be riddled with enemy informants with that kind of 'security'! And a link to the very top of the network right in this cell? Huh? That breaks every law of resistance movements I've ever heard of... it just is too simplistic. Oh, it's not a terrible story, but it's not deep or complex. It is exactly what it seems from the start: about evil people trying to take over this planet using nefarious means. I haven't had any plot 'twists' yet that I didn't see coming miles away, that's for sure... From a game built around its story I'd expect more than this game has to offer.

On a similar note, the stealth gameplay. Yes, I know that this cannot be Theif. But I think that having the guards just do one blast of that gun and then turning around and leaving is such bad design... no human would do that! I wish it was more like a real stealth game... if you get seen alarms go off and it gets harder to progress, you can be followed by badguys, make the levels a bit less linear (as it is it's really 'rooms that are puzzles', not stealth -- the stealth areas are just types of puzzle rooms, not true stealth gameplay, I'd say.

And finally (continuing from the first on this list), difficulty. Or the near-total lack of it. As I said when we first discussed this game, I really think that the death system was made FAR too lenient. When you die you start just before the room you were at. With one healthbar full (which can be a HUGE gift sometimes). This means that there is virtually no death penalty worth mentioning... you just have to retry the room until you get it right. No continues, no chance of failing the dungeon and having to restart it unless you quit, and no redoing of ANYTHING beyond the very room you are in. It's too easy. I honestly wish that the continue points were spread out... maybe the places where you save? Yes, it'd make it harder and more frusterating at times, but with a challenge level like this game it's needed... or make the 'continue at room you are at' thing a option in the option menu. That'd work too. :)

Score? I'd probably give it about what the PC sites were scoring it... 84 or so. As in knocking off a few points because of the shoddiness of the PC port (compared to the 87-88s that the console versions got on average). Hmm... actually, maybe 82%. Or 84. They're pretty similar really... :)

Quote:On a similar note, the stealth gameplay. Yes, I know that this cannot be Theif. But I think that having the guards just do one blast of that gun and then turning around and leaving is such bad design... no human would do that! I wish it was more like a real stealth game... if you get seen alarms go off and it gets harder to progress, you can be followed by badguys, make the levels a bit less linear (as it is it's really 'rooms that are puzzles', not stealth -- the stealth areas are just types of puzzle rooms, not true stealth gameplay, I'd say.

If they did that I'd never be able to beat it!! I get caught all the time, though I think that might be because I don't really try that hard to be stealth, but still...

Quote:Simplistic combat -- it's not awful, but it is quite easy and there is a lot of it for that level of simplicity. But it's entertaining so this is not a big problem. The dungeons are fun most of the time. But I wish that the combat was both more complex and more challenging. Either, or preferably both. There have been just a couple of times when it's actually been a challenge and those have been some of the more fun parts of the game... I wish more enemies were tough. Sadly few seem to be. It's definitely a missed opportunity. Like with all of these.

The battle system isn't supposed to be complex because you're supposed to use stealth to get from place to place.

Quote:If they did that I'd never be able to beat it!! I get caught all the time, though I think that might be because I don't really try that hard to be stealth, but still...

All the time? But all you do is run, hide in the nearby conviently located hiding spot (like in the factory all of those conviently placed pipes that just curve around a corner), wait until the guy fires that security grid at the wall, and try again... not hard. :)

Quote:The battle system isn't supposed to be complex because you're supposed to use stealth to get from place to place.

True, but there is a bunch of combat for a "stealth" game and the workings of a nice combat system (though as I said it could use a bit more depth), so it's too bad that it wasn't worked on more. And you do have to do a bunch of fighting.

Quote:BG&E is of course a lot better than Cruis'n. Gauntlet? Hmm... that's tough. Gauntlet is more pure fun, but BG&E tries to do a lot more... that is harder.

And there you have it, folks. ABF is now certifiably insane. He prefers complete and utter shit like Gauntlet over a terrific title like BG&E. I really don't think anything else needs to be said on this matter.

Quote:And you only can think that PC RPG stories are simple if you either have the worst luck with finding good games or have no concept of not having stories always spoon-fed to you... but we're talking about this on MSN. I'm quite interested in what other people here think about the subject but it'd be hard to explain...

In short, I think that it is good for a story to be complex in its presentation to the user. Metroid Prime has a great story, and the fact that you have to look for it to find it does not in the least hurt it. It has a lot of depth, that could not be shown in any form other than text, and the way it slowly reveals things to you and you slowly begin to understand the full picture of the game's story is a great storytelling method that keeps up interest in people who care and lets people who don't just ignore it. I think it was a much better way of telling that story than having to cut out a large portion of it and putting it in as a linear game story that gets told to you one chunk at a time as you progress (with cutscenes or something). Yes, you have to actively look for story objects to get the story, but it isn't hard to do and it allowed for so much more story depth than they otherwise could have told...

OB1 thinks it has an awful story, but that's okay because they weren't trying to tell a good story anyway... you shouldn't randomly tell facts out of order in little bits. Bad storytelling method (but I'm sure you can explain it better OB1...).

*sigh*
You act as if being "spoon-fed" a story is a bad thing. It's what us humans call story-telling, ABF. You won't believe how it works! Get this: Good story-telling is usually told in some way, be it verbally, through text, through a movie, etc. Presentation, pacing, and composition are three very important parts of story-telling. Without these three things, even the best concepts can fall flat and become bad stories. With books and movies, people have had plenty of time to perfect methods of story-telling, while with games the only real success in solid story-telling has been when the stories were presented like movies, the closest visual medium to video games. And while it is effective, video games as an art form have a long way to go and will be probably be a while before a method of story-telling unique to video games becomes the standard. A bunch of text in random order--no matter what it amounts to when you put it all together--is most certainly not good and effective story-telling. In fact it's not really story-telling at all. You can get a story that way, and it can work for what the developers were trying to do (as in the case with Prime), but it's definitely not telling a story well. You don't play Prime for the story. You play Silent Hill or Grim Fandango for the story.

Quote:And there you have it, folks. ABF is now certifiably insane. He prefers complete and utter shit like Gauntlet over a terrific title like BG&E. I really don't think anything else needs to be said on this matter.

Yup, that's exactly what I said, uh huh! ... oh wait, it isn't! I said it was close. BG&E is probably a bit better. And you can insult Gauntlet Legends/Dark Legacy all you want but they are still quite good games. From what I've seen (of people's opinions of the games), it seems like what they are are love or hate games. As in, you either love them or hate them, without a whole lot of middle ground... that does NOT make them bad games. It makes them games designed to be a specific thing that some people like and others don't. Like... oh, a whole lot of games... :) What you can say is that you think they're too simplistic. Okay, fine. You think that. I think that they are simple, but really fun... it's a difference of opinion and because yours is that it doesn't make the games terrible. (not so) sorry.

Quote:*sigh*
You act as if being "spoon-fed" a story is a bad thing. It's what us humans call story-telling, ABF. You won't believe how it works! Get this: Good story-telling is usually told in some way, be it verbally, through text, through a movie, etc. Presentation, pacing, and composition are three very important parts of story-telling. Without these three things, even the best concepts can fall flat and become bad stories. With books and movies, people have had plenty of time to perfect methods of story-telling, while with games the only real success in solid story-telling has been when the stories were presented like movies, the closest visual medium to video games. And while it is effective, video games as an art form have a long way to go and will be probably be a while before a method of story-telling unique to video games becomes the standard. A bunch of text in random order--no matter what it amounts to when you put it all together--is most certainly not good and effective story-telling. In fact it's not really story-telling at all. You can get a story that way, and it can work for what the developers were trying to do (as in the case with Prime), but it's definitely not telling a story well. You don't play Prime for the story. You play Silent Hill or Grim Fandango for the story.

No, it's not always a bad thing, I agree with you there. What I really meant was that while in many cases it is fine and works great, it's nice to see some games mix it up a bit. I don't want EVERY game that way. Having more inventive storytelling forms in some games is a good thing.

And actually the story is one of the (many) great things about Prime. I'd definitely say that it increased my interest in the game while I was playing... it fleshes out the world in a great fashion and gives all kinds of depth to a game that otherwise would be much simpler. You don't play Prime just for the story, but it's definitely one of the reasons you play.

Oh, and on a similar note (since I saw it yesterday) if you've seen it you must have hated the anime movie Millenium Actress... it goes pretty much against what you said there. :) I thought it was pretty good...

Quote:Yup, that's exactly what I said, uh huh! ... oh wait, it isn't! I said it was close. BG&E is probably a bit better. And you can insult Gauntlet Legends/Dark Legacy all you want but they are still quite good games. From what I've seen (of people's opinions of the games), it seems like what they are are love or hate games. As in, you either love them or hate them, without a whole lot of middle ground... that does NOT make them bad games. It makes them games designed to be a specific thing that some people like and others don't. Like... oh, a whole lot of games... What you can say is that you think they're too simplistic. Okay, fine. You think that. I think that they are simple, but really fun... it's a difference of opinion and because yours is that it doesn't make the games terrible. (not so) sorry.

To even put them close to eacher is a massive insult to BG&E. It's like saying that FDR is just a bit of a better person than Hitler. FDR representing BG&E, in case you didn't get that.

Quote:No, it's not always a bad thing, I agree with you there. What I really meant was that while in many cases it is fine and works great, it's nice to see some games mix it up a bit. I don't want EVERY game that way. Having more inventive storytelling forms in some games is a good thing.

And actually the story is one of the (many) great things about Prime. I'd definitely say that it increased my interest in the game while I was playing... it fleshes out the world in a great fashion and gives all kinds of depth to a game that otherwise would be much simpler. You don't play Prime just for the story, but it's definitely one of the reasons you play.

The "story" in Prime is very loose and the bits of information that you get from scanning stuff doesn't amount to good story-telling. It's great background information, but definitely not good story-telling. And it wasn't supposed to be.

Quote:Oh, and on a similar note (since I saw it yesterday) if you've seen it you must have hated the anime movie Millenium Actress... it goes pretty much against what you said there. I thought it was pretty good...

Millennium Actress is a superb movie, and how does that go against anything I said? You mean that "randomness" comment? A story can be out of order and random and still be great (like Pulp Fiction), as long as it's still presented well. If Millennium Actress wasn't structured and presented so exceptionally well then it wouldn't have been a good movie.

Quote:To even put them close to eacher is a massive insult to BG&E. It's like saying that FDR is just a bit of a better person than Hitler. FDR representing BG&E, in case you didn't get that.

I'm glad you took the time to read all of what I said there. And in my opinion you insult Gauntlet massively. It is NOT a terrible game. Far from it. It isn't something everyone would love, but it is far from terrible. The fact that I know others also like Gauntlet reinforces my position. It's not like I'm the only one who likes Gauntlet! Legends/Dark Legacy are pretty popular... that's why Legends got a sequel and that's why Midway is currently working on a new Gauntlet game. :)

Quote:Millennium Actress is a superb movie, and how does that go against anything I said? You mean that "randomness" comment? A story can be out of order and random and still be great (like Pulp Fiction), as long as it's still presented well. If Millennium Actress wasn't structured and presented so exceptionally well then it wouldn't have been a good movie.

Yeah, randomness. Given how much you're railed against randomness, I'd think you'd dislike it in movies too...

Uh, presented well? I'd CERTAINLY say that Metroid Prime was presented well! Actually I'd say that I don't think it could have been presented any better. What's so horrible about going and reading things that tell you story in an action game? I don't get it...

Dark Legacy got 51 and 59 [Xbox and GC versions] from Game Rankings. Not too high. That's the only Guantlet game they list, btw.

Anyway, Guantlet's a fun arcade style game that you can spend 20-30 minutes playing when you feel like it, but really you just can't compare it to a game like BG&E. They're just way too different.

Quote:I'm glad you took the time to read all of what I said there. And in my opinion you insult Gauntlet massively. It is NOT a terrible game. Far from it. It isn't something everyone would love, but it is far from terrible. The fact that I know others also like Gauntlet reinforces my position. It's not like I'm the only one who likes Gauntlet! Legends/Dark Legacy are pretty popular... that's why Legends got a sequel and that's why Midway is currently working on a new Gauntlet game.

... Wait a second now...

So because you know "others" that like Gauntlet and Midway is developing a new Gauntlet game means that it's a quality series? If those two things are enough to make a game good then every game ever made is AWESOME.

Quote:Yeah, randomness. Given how much you're railed against randomness, I'd think you'd dislike it in movies too...

There's a difference between randomness for a reason and just plan randomness.

Quote:Uh, presented well? I'd CERTAINLY say that Metroid Prime was presented well! Actually I'd say that I don't think it could have been presented any better. What's so horrible about going and reading things that tell you story in an action game? I don't get it...

The STORY wasn't presented well, THE STORY. *slaps ABF across his stupid face* The game itself has superb presentation, but the story is barely presented at all. It's the complete opposite of presentation, actually. It's just there for you to find, and does not affect the game whatsoever (aside from the actual act of scanning for getting a higher percentage). It's like the background stuff you read in the manuals of NES games to get why Mr White created Mega Man. Stuff like that. Neat to know, but not what you'd call great story-telling.

Quote:... Wait a second now...

So because you know "others" that like Gauntlet and Midway is developing a new Gauntlet game means that it's a quality series? If those two things are enough to make a game good then every game ever made is AWESOME.

Midway is somewhat under-rated. They aren't so awful. Well some of their games are, but most everyone publishes bad games... and they make some pretty good ones too. :)

And you know you're being absurd here. So because me and several people I know (I don't say it's a great multiplayer game for no reason you know!) like Gauntlet it's bad because you say so? Umm... I don't think so! You don't like it, fine. I don't like Grand Prix Legends. But I would never say it's a bad game. You shouldn't either. But you do, of course, for a lot of games, so I should never expect you to become a sensible person who considers all the facts before branding a game as bad. Too bad. :(

I mean, you call Doom awful as well, and that's one of the most critically acclaimed and highest rated PC games of all time...

Quote:The STORY wasn't presented well, THE STORY. *slaps ABF across his stupid face* The game itself has superb presentation, but the story is barely presented at all. It's the complete opposite of presentation, actually. It's just there for you to find, and does not affect the game whatsoever (aside from the actual act of scanning for getting a higher percentage). It's like the background stuff you read in the manuals of NES games to get why Mr White created Mega Man. Stuff like that. Neat to know, but not what you'd call great story-telling.

The story is presented great if you want to look for it and not presented if you don't care. I don't see the problem here. How in the world could they have presented it better, or even differently, and had one quarter that amount of story depth in an action game? I don't think they could have! And comparing it to a Mega Man story... so dumb... one block of story text has more depth than any Mega Man game, including the manuals.

On that note, I like it when manuals have story in them... helps explain games better. A manual that just tells you how to play is compartively boring. Manuals that tell story that's not in the game? Do you dislike that too?

Quote:Midway is somewhat under-rated. They aren't so awful. Well some of their games are, but most everyone publishes bad games... and they make some pretty good ones too.

And you know you're being absurd here. So because me and several people I know (I don't say it's a great multiplayer game for no reason you know!) like Gauntlet it's bad because you say so? Umm... I don't think so! You don't like it, fine. I don't like Grand Prix Legends. But I would never say it's a bad game. You shouldn't either. But you do, of course, for a lot of games, so I should never expect you to become a sensible person who considers all the facts before branding a game as bad. Too bad.

I mean, you call Doom awful as well, and that's one of the most critically acclaimed and highest rated PC games of all time...

This reminds me of a story I once read, a story about a little boy who thoughts lots of cappy things were really good because some stupid people liked them, and based all of his opinions around this idea. And by all I mean only some of them, and only sometimes. You see, this little boy was a huge hypocrite who sometimes liked to objectively call things bad while at the same time complained when other people did similar things. This little boy didn't really look at things objectively all of the time, just when it suited his arguments. This boy was hated by many, and came to become Hypocrite-Man, defender of the innocent... and defender of the guilty when he decided at that particular moment that defending the innocent would hurt his argument.

I hope you've understood the moral to this story.

Quote:The story is presented great if you want to look for it and not presented if you don't care. I don't see the problem here. How in the world could they have presented it better, or even differently, and had one quarter that amount of story depth in an action game? I don't think they could have! And comparing it to a Mega Man story... so dumb... one block of story text has more depth than any Mega Man game, including the manuals.

On that note, I like it when manuals have story in them... helps explain games better. A manual that just tells you how to play is compartively boring. Manuals that tell story that's not in the game? Do you dislike that too?

You're not listening to me, ABF. You've completely ignored all of the time I put into explaining good story-telling to you, everything about presentation, pacing, etc. If you refuse to pay attention to me then I'm just going to start ignoring everything you write as well.

Missed this post before... :)

Quote:Dark Legacy got 51 and 59 [Xbox and GC versions] from Game Rankings. Not too high. That's the only Guantlet game they list, btw.

Anyway, Guantlet's a fun arcade style game that you can spend 20-30 minutes playing when you feel like it, but really you just can't compare it to a game like BG&E. They're just way too different.

Gauntlet Legends for N64 got a 72.6. It got 73.5 for Dreamcast. As for Dark Legacy, I can see why it would score lower -- it isn't a massive step up and it clearly does not push modern hardware, innovate, or even have all new levels and stuff. But it did get a 67.3 for PS2...

As I've said before I'd rate Gauntlet higher, like in the B to B+ range (though I have entertained thoughts that it deserves an A- before). That's about the same range that I'd put BG&E in, so score-wise, for me I think that that was an appropriate comparison. But you are right, they are very different games and directly comparing them is hard. You are also right that Gauntlet is best in small doses... I usually find myself, when I play it, playing just a couple of levels (considering how long levels take...). It can get a bit tedious after maybe an hour or so. BG&E isn't really like that. But Gauntlet also has a lot more replay value and is definitely a longer game than BG&E... they are different. But you have to try to score them somehow.

Quote:This reminds me of a story I once read, a story about a little boy who thoughts lots of cappy things were really good because some stupid people liked them, and based all of his opinions around this idea. And by all I mean only some of them, and only sometimes. You see, this little boy was a huge hypocrite who sometimes liked to objectively call things bad while at the same time complained when other people did similar things. This little boy didn't really look at things objectively all of the time, just when it suited his arguments. This boy was hated by many, and came to become Hypocrite-Man, defender of the innocent... and defender of the guilty when he decided at that particular moment that defending the innocent would hurt his argument.

I hope you've understood the moral to this story.

Standard "OB1 proves how stupid he is" attacks on games OB1 dislikes. The only thing it proves is how closeminded you are about what game quality is. "If I don't like it IT IS TERRIBLE" is a truly idiotic way of telling which games are good, and it is very, very sad that you can't see it. Well, it's sad the 1% of the time that it isn't incredibly annoying... it's the fact that you so absolutely react against anything you dislike with not even a shred of questioning about if anyone else's opinions could possibly have any validity to them that makes people not like you, OB1. :)

Quote:You're not listening to me, ABF. You've completely ignored all of the time I put into explaining good story-telling to you, everything about presentation, pacing, etc. If you refuse to pay attention to me then I'm just going to start ignoring everything you write as well.

Well, for one thing you are being kind of confusing about this. I don't fully get your point(s) I guess... How about examples of games that have it the way you like it more... one problem here is that there is so many different kinds of story and how to tell it. Like, as I said, Metroid Prime and Torment can both be called to have nonlinear stories but the forms of that are so different that they have nothing in common. What, specifically, are the problems here?

Remember, this started with the discussion of PC RPGs. You said something about this and I said that that was one of your problems with PC RPGs... not liking to not have the story unmissably pushed at you. Games where it isn't a given that you will learn all of the story are what I was talking about and what I thought you were saying you disliked... like Fallout, Baldur's Gate (to a lesser extent, though -- you will get most of the story in BG I or II. You can choose to miss sidequests, though, which can shed a bit more light on some things... but you won't miss the major plot elements or explanations.), Torment... then I thought of Metroid Prime... hey, I just thought of another. How about Quest for Glory? You can beat that without doing some of the major plot elements! You can leave the major badguy in the game untouched... How about games with multiple endings and stuff? ... see what I mean, I don't really understand what exactly it is you have a problem with here?

Quote:Gauntlet Legends for N64 got a 72.6. It got 73.5 for Dreamcast. As for Dark Legacy, I can see why it would score lower -- it isn't a massive step up and it clearly does not push modern hardware, innovate, or even have all new levels and stuff. But it did get a 67.3 for PS2...

As I've said before I'd rate Gauntlet higher, like in the B to B+ range (though I have entertained thoughts that it deserves an A- before). That's about the same range that I'd put BG&E in, so score-wise, for me I think that that was an appropriate comparison. But you are right, they are very different games and directly comparing them is hard. You are also right that Gauntlet is best in small doses... I usually find myself, when I play it, playing just a couple of levels (considering how long levels take...). It can get a bit tedious after maybe an hour or so. BG&E isn't really like that. But Gauntlet also has a lot more replay value and is definitely a longer game than BG&E... they are different. But you have to try to score them somehow.

Absolutely. All of the Gauntlet games get a "P" for "Poo", and BG&E gets a "W" for "Way better than the shit you like".

Quote:Standard "OB1 proves how stupid he is" attacks on games OB1 dislikes. The only thing it proves is how closeminded you are about what game quality is. "If I don't like it IT IS TERRIBLE" is a truly idiotic way of telling which games are good, and it is very, very sad that you can't see it. Well, it's sad the 1% of the time that it isn't incredibly annoying... it's the fact that you so absolutely react against anything you dislike with not even a shred of questioning about if anyone else's opinions could possibly have any validity to them that makes people not like you, OB1.

Dude, did you even read my story? Because it looks like you completely missed the point. BTW, the twist ending is that you are Hypocrite-Man, in case you didn't get that. *GASP SHOCK AWE!!!*

Quote:Well, for one thing you are being kind of confusing about this. I don't fully get your point(s) I guess... How about examples of games that have it the way you like it more... one problem here is that there is so many different kinds of story and how to tell it. Like, as I said, Metroid Prime and Torment can both be called to have nonlinear stories but the forms of that are so different that they have nothing in common. What, specifically, are the problems here?

Remember, this started with the discussion of PC RPGs. You said something about this and I said that that was one of your problems with PC RPGs... not liking to not have the story unmissably pushed at you. Games where it isn't a given that you will learn all of the story are what I was talking about and what I thought you were saying you disliked... like Fallout, Baldur's Gate (to a lesser extent, though -- you will get most of the story in BG I or II. You can choose to miss sidequests, though, which can shed a bit more light on some things... but you won't miss the major plot elements or explanations.), Torment... then I thought of Metroid Prime... hey, I just thought of another. How about Quest for Glory? You can beat that without doing some of the major plot elements! You can leave the major badguy in the game untouched... How about games with multiple endings and stuff? ... see what I mean, I don't really understand what exactly it is you have a problem with here?

The problem I have, which I already stated, is that these games do not tell good stories, because they barely even tell them at all! If these games were movies, it would be the equivalent of watching a mindless action movie that has text scrolling across the bottom of the screen telling pieces of a pretty good story. Sure the story would be there, but it would be presented in such a way that nobody in their right mind would consider the movie to be a great piece of storytelling. It's as simple as that. If you STILL don't understand what I'm saying, then you never will and it'd be best for you to just continue being blissfully ignorant.

Quote:Dude, did you even read my story? Because it looks like you completely missed the point. BTW, the twist ending is that you are Hypocrite-Man, in case you didn't get that. *GASP SHOCK AWE!!!*

Thanks for listening...

As I said, expecting you to act like a sensible human being is far too much to hope for. 'Rationality? Bah, who needs it...'

It is NOT RATIONAL to say that your opinion is the law! It isn't! But you'll never understand that so I don't know why I bother repeating it...

So, can you come up with OBJECTIVE reasons why Gauntlet is so awful? I'm sure that they will almost all be opinion reasons, not objective ones. Because that's where most of the things that are "wrong" with Gauntlet reside: things that are a matter of pure opinion, with very little objective fact "good or bad" involved.

Quote:The problem I have, which I already stated, is that these games do not tell good stories, because they barely even tell them at all! If these games were movies, it would be the equivalent of watching a mindless action movie that has text scrolling across the bottom of the screen telling pieces of a pretty good story. Sure the story would be there, but it would be presented in such a way that nobody in their right mind would consider the movie to be a great piece of storytelling. It's as simple as that. If you STILL don't understand what I'm saying, then you never will and it'd be best for you to just continue being blissfully ignorant.

And I've said that I think you are completely wrong. Do we have anything to discuss on this issue? I don't think it's bad storytelling. Is there a rulebook somewhere that says it is? Otherwise, I believe that this again falls under opinion. I happen to think it's great.

Quote:Thanks for listening...

As I said, expecting you to act like a sensible human being is far too much to hope for. 'Rationality? Bah, who needs it...'

It is NOT RATIONAL to say that your opinion is the law! It isn't! But you'll never understand that so I don't know why I bother repeating it...

So, can you come up with OBJECTIVE reasons why Gauntlet is so awful? I'm sure that they will almost all be opinion reasons, not objective ones. Because that's where most of the things that are "wrong" with Gauntlet reside: things that are a matter of pure opinion, with very little objective fact "good or bad" involved.

You didn't read the story, did you? There's a reason why the little boy is called HYPOCRITE-MAN. READ THE DAMN STORY!

Quote:And I've said that I think you are completely wrong. Do we have anything to discuss on this issue? I don't think it's bad storytelling. Is there a rulebook somewhere that says it is? Otherwise, I believe that this again falls under opinion. I happen to think it's great.

Uh, actually there is a rulebook somewhere that explains what good story-telling is! Hahaha, what an idiot. Rulebooks, school books, courses, etc. Now you may personally enjoy what is generally considered bad story-telling, but that doesn't make it any better.

Quote:Uh, actually there is a rulebook somewhere that explains what good story-telling is! Hahaha, what an idiot. Rulebooks, school books, courses, etc. Now you may personally enjoy what is generally considered bad story-telling, but that doesn't make it any better.

I'd need a WHOLE lot more than your opinion to be convinced of much of anything and this is certainly no exception. I don't know if I've seen people say such a thing before, so it's interesting that you are acting like your opinion is so obviously the only possible right one...

Quote:You didn't read the story, did you? There's a reason why the little boy is called HYPOCRITE-MAN. READ THE DAMN STORY!

Cute, but quite inaccurate and stupid.

Quote:I'd need a WHOLE lot more than your opinion to be convinced of much of anything and this is certainly no exception. I don't know if I've seen people say such a thing before, so it's interesting that you are acting like your opinion is so obviously the only possible right one...

Are you saying that you've never had a literature or creative writing before? Or a film class? There are many books on the subject. A subject that you are obviously very ignorant of.

Quote:Cute, but quite inaccurate and stupid.

It's more accurate than anything you've written in your entire life. And that's not hyperbole!

Quote:Are you saying that you've never had a literature or creative writing before? Or a film class? There are many books on the subject. A subject that you are obviously very ignorant of.

No to creative writing or film. Literature? Umm... yeah, I guess so. If you mean reading stuff and writing reaction papers. :)

English has never been one of my favorite classes... but I think I'm plenty qualified to say what kind of storytelling I liked and what I liked less. Though I'd love to hear the opinions of other people here on this subject too! It'd be great...

Quote:It's more accurate than anything you've written in your entire life. And that's not hyperbole!

If you believe that you are a sad, deluded human being.

MP has an interesting story [well actually it's probably more accurate to call it a back story since it's mostly events that lead up to the game], but the presentation isn't the best. Having random clips of backstory scattered across the game is no where near as good as having scenes [flashbacks maybe] throughout the game. Like maybe you find hidden video discs or something that you can view that chronicle the history of the Chozen rather than just random paragraphs or there could be scenes that show the past events from the perspective of one of the Chozo. The way MP did it's story ISN'T bad, but there are better ways.

But if you did it that way there would be a lot less story and it'd have to be somewhat simpler...

I don't see why it'd have to be.

I don't mean that they'd have to take out ALL the text, but they could add some variety to make the presentation better.

If you like books, why do you have a problem with a game that primarially tells its story in words? A great many games have done that after all... or is the problem the disorganized order of the story and how it doesn't tell it linearly?

I skipped most of this because it's kind of boring me but what the hell..

Just thought I'd chime in and say that I kind of liked Metroid Prime's mode of storytelling and think that, if developed appropriately for each individual game, scattering facts and having the player find them in order to advance the story (at there own pace) seems like a perfectly logical and appropriate way of videgames to tell a story.

Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

Obviously it wouldn't work for all game types, and would have to be tweaked accordingly but.. yeah. I'll let you two keep at it. :)

Oni told some story this way, with (optional) consoles that told more story than was told in the game... so do other games, of course. For instance, text adventures? :D Some graphical adventures do this as well... how about the Myst games? Numerous journals, many of which serve no gameplay purpose but are just there to tell the backstory...

Quote:Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

I tried to say this, I think. Games are interactive, so why not have the stories be more interactive than book or movie stories as well? Certainly seems to make sense to me! Yeah, it wouldn't work for everything. But it would for some things. Why should a different medium be constrained by the limits of previous ones?

Quote:No to creative writing or film. Literature? Umm... yeah, I guess so. If you mean reading stuff and writing reaction papers.

English has never been one of my favorite classes... but I think I'm plenty qualified to say what kind of storytelling I liked and what I liked less. Though I'd love to hear the opinions of other people here on this subject too! It'd be great...

Well there you go. It's fine if you like it, but on a more objective level it's definitely not good story-telling.

Quote:If you believe that you are a sad, deluded human being.

Again with the witty retorts.

Quote:MP has an interesting story [well actually it's probably more accurate to call it a back story since it's mostly events that lead up to the game], but the presentation isn't the best. Having random clips of backstory scattered across the game is no where near as good as having scenes [flashbacks maybe] throughout the game. Like maybe you find hidden video discs or something that you can view that chronicle the history of the Chozen rather than just random paragraphs or there could be scenes that show the past events from the perspective of one of the Chozo. The way MP did it's story ISN'T bad, but there are better ways.

Well said. If Retro had wanted to tell a good story then they would have found ways to do it, but as it is they weren't trying to be Metal Gear Solid with Metroid Prime. They did say that they were going to try and tell a good story with MP2, though. If they had the cinematic presentation of Zero Mission coupled with the substance in their stories, it could make for one awesome, well-presented plot.

Quote:Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

Yes, I definitely agree with that. As I stated before, developers have not yet figured out an ideal and unique way of telling good stories in video games, it's still in the experimental stages. Right now the best game stories are usually the ones that rely on cinematics, something I don't quite agree with but can't really think of a better solution yet. To really tell a good story and take advantage of the unique qualities of video games, you would have to make the player feel like they are taking a part of the story and actually affecting its outcome. Some games do that to a certain extent, games like Deus Ex. The problem is in that series the story unfolds completely through emotionless conversations and text. The story lacks emotion, as do the bits of text you pick up in Metroid Prime and those other games ABF mentioned. Video games are a visual medium and as such need to effectively use visuals when telling a story. If I had to choose two games that tell stories most effectively, I'd choose Silent Hill (series) and ICO. In both games, you're given enough information through a few cinematics to basically form a story in your head while you're playing them, and while neither is very complex, they tell their stories very effectively through visuals and atmosphere. ICO has a very classic Brothers Grimm-type story that you don't even need any dialogue to know what's going on (and you don't understand a thing anyone is saying, in the US version at least) because it completely relies on the emotion between the two characters and their situation to really feel for them and make you feel like you're controlling the story (even though you don't).

But anyhow, just plan cinematics ala MGS are not the answer, but neither are boring pieces of text strewn about all over the place.

Quote:Though I'd love to hear the opinions of other people here on this subject too! It'd be great...

IMO, although Metroid Prime had an interesting storyline, I still didn't comprehend all of it. In terms of efficiency, Metroid Prime didn't tell the story well. I'm sure they could have come up with a way to present much more clearly (although considering Nintendo probably stresses gameplay over story-telling, they probably just wanted to release the game as soon as possible and didn't allow enough time to develop the presentation). I've never completed Metroid Prime in one sitting, or even over the span of a week. It's moreso something I like to pick up every once-in-a-while, when I find the spare time. Therefore, I easily forget all those small parts of the storyline that are scattered all throughout the game.

On the other hand, I also agree with this:

Quote:Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

Nintendo really isn't against story-telling. Eiji Aonuma (Zelda) and Yoshio Sakamoto (Metroid) believe that story-telling is a very important part of games nowadays, which they proved with their last few titles (Wind Waker, Metroid Fusion, Metroid Zero Mission). It's pretty much just Miyamoto that thinks story is not very important.

Quote:Again with the witty retorts.

Unlike what you seem to think, you are the only person here who frequently seems to find me annoying, as far as I know, so no, it's not especially accurate. :)

Quote:Well said. If Retro had wanted to tell a good story then they would have found ways to do it, but as it is they weren't trying to be Metal Gear Solid with Metroid Prime. They did say that they were going to try and tell a good story with MP2, though. If they had the cinematic presentation of Zero Mission coupled with the substance in their stories, it could make for one awesome, well-presented plot.

But how would they have that much substance? As you say, they don't want this to be like MGS where you spend hours and hours watching cutscenes... any move in that direction might make the story easier to follow, but it'd also almost have to mean that there would be a simpler backstory (though it could mean a more intricate plot ocurring during the game), I'd think.

Quote:Nintendo really isn't against story-telling. Eiji Aonuma (Zelda) and Yoshio Sakamoto (Metroid) believe that story-telling is a very important part of games nowadays, which they proved with their last few titles (Wind Waker, Metroid Fusion, Metroid Zero Mission). It's pretty much just Miyamoto that thinks story is not very important.

If that's true, then why do most Nintendo games not try very hard to tell stories?
They're more against it than not, I'd say.

Quote:*cut long paragraph* But anyhow, just plan cinematics ala MGS are not the answer, but neither are boring pieces of text strewn about all over the place.

It really depends on the game. Ideally most types of games should have stories... and depth in stories is good, in my opinion. As long as it's interesting I don't mind at all having more to read. I doubt you're saying that books lack emotion (obviously false), so are you saying that the way it was written wasn't good enough? Hmm... I don't know. It seemed (in the history sections) like it was trying to explain what happened... emotion? Sure there is some. Not as much as some games, probably, though. But the story it tells is good. I loved the whole scan visor aspect of the game... a lot of the things it tells you are, imo, definitely worth the time it takes to scan everything. :) ... but that might be an aspect of liking adventure games, I think it helps when you can get textual (or voice) descriptions of objects or events... Eternal Darkness, for instance. The text descriptions of objects and stuff was one of my favorite aspects of that game.

And for 'telling a great story' you know which game I'll mention again, but I doubt that that'll make anyone here go and try to find it, so what's the point... :(

I'll just do this.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/...24697.html
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages4/187975.asp

Quote:If you like books, why do you have a problem with a game that primarially tells its story in words?

Yes, it's true I do like books [fantasy mostly]but I'm still a very visual person. I can always visualize things in my head 100 times easier than I can write them down. I'd be a better director than I would an author, although that hasn't stopped me so far. It just comes down to personality I guess.

Anyway, as I said that story itself is interesting but there are better ways to present the story and possibly even to make a more compelling story. There need to be a balance between substance of story and presentation. Just scattering random text around for players to find isn't the best way to do it and neither is solely relying on cinematic scenes. A combination of the two could be better.

Another problem is that finding the backstory doesn't affect the game, the storyline is still the same. If they could set something up where you find things that affect the storyline of the game that would be cool.

Quote:Another problem is that finding the backstory doesn't affect the game, the storyline is still the same. If they could set something up where you find things that affect the storyline of the game that would be cool.

Yes, making what you do affect the game story is a great way that games can (and have) implemented interactivity (and replay value...) into games. Definitely. Games that do that well can be great... that's a quite different aspect of interactivity. I'd mentioned it before in this thread, but it just underscores what I was saying a while back about how varied this category is...

Quote:Yes, it's true I do like books [fantasy mostly]but I'm still a very visual person. I can always visualize things in my head 100 times easier than I can write them down. I'd be a better director than I would an author, although that hasn't stopped me so far. It just comes down to personality I guess.

Every person is different (visual/aural/etc)... :)

Quote:Anyway, as I said that story itself is interesting but there are better ways to present the story and possibly even to make a more compelling story. There need to be a balance between substance of story and presentation. Just scattering random text around for players to find isn't the best way to do it and neither is solely relying on cinematic scenes. A combination of the two could be better.

Like with the Warcraft/Starcraft games where the in-depth backstory went in the manual? Yes, a lot of games put the backstory into the manual, but those ones had a lot more depth than most there...

Quote:Unlike what you seem to think, you are the only person here who frequently seems to find me annoying, as far as I know, so no, it's not especially accurate.

What on earth are you talking about?

Quote:But how would they have that much substance? As you say, they don't want this to be like MGS where you spend hours and hours watching cutscenes... any move in that direction might make the story easier to follow, but it'd also almost have to mean that there would be a simpler backstory (though it could mean a more intricate plot ocurring during the game), I'd think.

The plot in Prime is secondary, not important for the game. It's all backstory stuff and has almost no emotional weight on the gameplay experience.

Quote:If that's true, then why do most Nintendo games not try very hard to tell stories?
They're more against it than not, I'd say.

Most of their games are ones that can't really have good stories. Pretty much just adventures like Zelda and Metroid can really have good stories, and (recently, at least) they do.

Quote:It really depends on the game. Ideally most types of games should have stories... and depth in stories is good, in my opinion. As long as it's interesting I don't mind at all having more to read. I doubt you're saying that books lack emotion (obviously false), so are you saying that the way it was written wasn't good enough? Hmm... I don't know. It seemed (in the history sections) like it was trying to explain what happened... emotion? Sure there is some. Not as much as some games, probably, though. But the story it tells is good. I loved the whole scan visor aspect of the game... a lot of the things it tells you are, imo, definitely worth the time it takes to scan everything. ... but that might be an aspect of liking adventure games, I think it helps when you can get textual (or voice) descriptions of objects or events... Eternal Darkness, for instance. The text descriptions of objects and stuff was one of my favorite aspects of that game.

And for 'telling a great story' you know which game I'll mention again, but I doubt that that'll make anyone here go and try to find it, so what's the point...

I'll just do this.

*sigh*

You're really clueless, aren't you? I've gone in depth explaining how random bits of text that have little emotional impact on your character or the story of the game at all are nothing like a good novel or movie, but you don't seem to be smart enough to understand a thing that I'm saying (or are just so damn egotistical that you refuse to listen), so I'm not going to explain myself again.

Quote:The plot in Prime is secondary, not important for the game. It's all backstory stuff and has almost no emotional weight on the gameplay experience.

My point is that I found said backstory interesting. I did. That means I liked it. And as I said I also liked how it gave you lots of (text) details about the world (not just the story) in the things you scan. That was really great and something that, as I clearly said, I wish more games had... :)

Anyway, this was supposed to be about Fallout originally... and that game's thing isn't totally random facts and stuff without integrating it into the game more closely (though it has some of that with you slowly discovering the world outside of the Vault), but is more about nonlinearity and the fact that you don't have to go after the story if you don't want to... that's its connection to Prime. But in most ways they are quite different, I think...

Quote:What on earth are you talking about?

That as far as I know you're the only one here who constantly complains about me being annoying...

Quote:Most of their games are ones that can't really have good stories. Pretty much just adventures like Zelda and Metroid can really have good stories, and (recently, at least) they do.

Somewhat true, yes. But what kinds of games you make says something about your design philosophy you know! And they have definitely made games with not much story that could have had even a semblance of one (like, oh, hmm... Smash Brothers?)...

Quote:My point is that I found said backstory interesting. I did. That means I liked it. And as I said I also liked how it gave you lots of (text) details about the world (not just the story) in the things you scan. That was really great and something that, as I clearly said, I wish more games had...

Anyway, this was supposed to be about Fallout originally... and that game's thing isn't totally random facts and stuff without integrating it into the game more closely (though it has some of that with you slowly discovering the world outside of the Vault), but is more about nonlinearity and the fact that you don't have to go after the story if you don't want to... that's its connection to Prime. But in most ways they are quite different, I think...

I also liked the backstory, but no matter how good it is I still would never say that Metroid Prime is a good piece of story-telling.

Quote:That as far as I know you're the only one here who constantly complains about me being annoying...

I'm the only one here who even bothers to respond to your posts.

Quote:Somewhat true, yes. But what kinds of games you make says something about your design philosophy you know! And they have definitely made games with not much story that could have had even a semblance of one (like, oh, hmm... Smash Brothers?)...

Nintendo likes to make super-fun games, and sometimes story gets in the way. But when possible, they do strive to make a good story.

Quote:I'm the only one here who even bothers to respond to your posts.

Not always true. It's probably a similar proportion to the number who respond to you. :)

Quote:Nintendo likes to make super-fun games, and sometimes story gets in the way. But when possible, they do strive to make a good story.

That's not really true and you know it... making it fun is primary. Which is great, but at some point story does matter.

Quote:I also liked the backstory, but no matter how good it is I still would never say that Metroid Prime is a good piece of story-telling.

Fine, whatever. I don't think there is much left to say about Prime, really... But how about the rest of my point...

Quote:Not always true. It's probably a similar proportion to the number who respond to you.

Well there aren't many people that post as much as we do.

Quote:That's not really true and you know it... making it fun is primary. Which is great, but at some point story does matter.

And how does that contradict what I said?

Quote:Fine, whatever. I don't think there is much left to say about Prime, really... But how about the rest of my point...

What about it?

Quote:Well there aren't many people that post as much as we do.

Unless you're missing, which you seem to be more often this year...

Quote:And how does that contradict what I said?

Just that you were giving story more importance in many Nintendo games than I would, I thought.

Quote:What about it?

No comment? You don't care at all? Fine... sigh... but I know you have an opinion...

Quote:Unless you're missing, which you seem to be more often this year...

Well it's boring sometimes.

Quote:Just that you were giving story more importance in many Nintendo games than I would, I thought.

Sakamoto and Aunoma are two of Nintendo's biggest directors, and they think story is important.

Quote:No comment? You don't care at all? Fine... sigh... but I know you have an opinion...

I already responded to all of that.

Quote:Sakamoto and Aunoma are two of Nintendo's biggest directors, and they think story is important.

And it's a good start.

Quote:I already responded to all of that.

Your response about Fallout? You seemed to complain more about the perspective and graphics than anything... and said the story was bad. Though I can't figure out how you could say that...