Tendo City

As of a couple weeks ago Canada is also the only place to allow same sex divorce

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...rriage_col

Quote:Saskatchewan Allows Gay Marriage

Fri Nov 5, 4:47 PM ET Canada - Reuters



OTTAWA (Reuters) - While 11 U.S. states voted to ban gay marriage this week, the practice is now legal in a majority of Canada's provinces, the result of a court decision in Saskatchewan on Friday.



The court made Saskatchewan the sixth of Canada's 10 provinces to allow gay marriage, ruling that the heterosexual-only definition of marriage is unconstitutional. Gay marriage is also legal in the northern Yukon Territory,


"The common law definition of marriage for civil purposes is declared to be 'the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others,"' Justice Donna Wilson wrote in her decision, expanding the definition to include homosexual unions.


Only in the conservative province of Alberta, three lightly populated Atlantic provinces, and two northern territories does the legal definition of marriage remain only the union of a man and a woman. Gay marriage is now legal in provinces and territories representing 86 percent of Canada's population.


Neither the Liberal federal government nor the left-leaning New Democratic Party government of Saskatchewan opposed the efforts of the five gay couples who brought the case.


The federal Liberals have promised to make gay marriage legal nationwide, but they have also asked the Supreme Court of Canada to pronounce on whether this is required by the Constitution. The high court is not expected to make its decision before next year.

Has civil society and morality had a complete meltdown yet, then?

Ah, gay marriage. What a hotly contested issue. Well, I'll throw my thoughts out there for the hell of it...

Anybody has the right to love, and thus marry, whoever they want. I don't agree with it. I don't have to. I don't agree with a lot of things that happen in the country, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be. That is a growing problem in America, I think. The "Land of the Free" is becoming the "Land of the Kinda Free", or the "Land of the Free, <i>on our terms</i>". Freedom is a luxury that we Americans relish, yet so often we are forced to give some of our freedoms up and, in some peoples case, we try to suppress them ourselves.

Now, I can see some things being outlawed from freedom, things that degrade society or otherwise cause harm to people or otherwise. Gay marriage hurts nobody. In fact, not only does it hurt nobody, but it makes at least two people involved VERY happy, being the gay couple in question.

I don't agree with their lifestyle, and I'll bet they don't agree with mine, but in this country, there has to be a moderate amount of tolerance for MANY different cultures, lifestyles, and viewpoints. That is what this country is all about. So let the gays and lesbians marry. It doesn't hurt anyone but the narrow-minded hypocrites who can't stand to see something happen that they don't agree with.

*wonders when Ryan will throw his 2 cents in*

Everyone knows what I think of gay marriage. The idea is revolting.

However, it's not going to be happening in America wholesale anytime soon, and we have gay-marriage proponents and liberals to thank for that.

Liberals have had this nasty habit of manipulating the judicial system, which is the hardest to check and counter, to force through ideas and laws that they think is good for everyone, instead of using the democratic process and letting people decide. This time, it wasn't a judicial decision. The people were given a choice to accept gay marriage. The idea was defeated soundly everywhere it was put to vote, making it loud and obvious that most people are against the idea, and by that virtue alone, it should not exist.

Some liberals (like ABF) said it was totally a religious matter. This is not anywhere near true. I think a lot of it was backlash against the far left, and their pompous, elitist attitudes. These people think they know everything, and everyone who doesn't agree with them are idiots, and rarely do they deny thinking this. Therefore, they try to force gay marriage on people. Stupid, stupid move. You can't force acceptance on people. Give it time. Gay marriage WILL be tolerated in this nation one day. But that time is not now. Blacks are considered equals to whites by most Americans. This was not forced on them. It was merely the natural tolerance that succeeding generations show for others in America. It takes time, and it has to happen on its own, for it to work.

In any case, I hope they're happy, because what they accomplished was nothing less than America shifting quite far to the right in this election, getting out all those Christian voters who stayed home last time. Make no mistake, Bush is not an idiot. He made gay marriage an issue because he knew the left would take the bait and cause a fuss about it. They did just that, and by ridiculing and alienating a majority of American voters, liberals allowed Bush and the Republicans solidified their power, and the Democrats are now weeping in defeat, some knowing it was their own fault the whole time for taking the bait.

I would hope this would teach the Left a lesson about letting things run their course, but I know it won't. And if the results are anything like this election, more power to them, I say!

It is utterly sickening that people can still win major political points in this country by opressing and spreading lies about minorities.

Ryan Wrote:Some liberals (like ABF) said it was totally a religious matter. This is not anywhere near true. I think a lot of it was backlash against the far left, and their pompous, elitist attitudes. These people think they know everything, and everyone who doesn't agree with them are idiots, and rarely do they deny thinking this. Therefore, they try to force gay marriage on people. Stupid, stupid move. You can't force acceptance on people. Give it time. Gay marriage WILL be tolerated in this nation one day. But that time is not now. Blacks are considered equals to whites by most Americans. This was not forced on them. It was merely the natural tolerance that succeeding generations show for others in America. It takes time, and it has to happen on its own, for it to work.

"Forcing" gay marriage upon us? Hardly the right choice of words, my friend. When you say it such as that, it makes it seem as though soon we'll all be forced INTO gay marriages. In allowing gays to marriage, all we are forcing ourselves to do is accept them for who they are, and who they are, is different. A different lifestyle than our own. America was founded for such tolerance.

To hell with them, right? To hell with any ideals different from our own! Yes! Let us not allow these different people the freedom to celebrate their love because it doesn't fit with our narrow view of society! Oppression will make America strong!

You can't honestly think that way, Ryan. You're smarter than that. If you despise the KKK such as I do for baselessly hating blacks, then how can you rightly throw stones at gays simply because they, too, are different? Are you truly so narrow-minded?

They key is that people like him justify it with those delusions that it is a "choice".

Yes I agree with EdenMaster and ABF, get to known gay people before you you make your judgement.

ABF Wrote:It is utterly sickening that people can still win major political points in this country by opressing and spreading lies about minorities.

The Democrats are masters of such practices. They have brought utter ruination to blacks socially over the last 35 years or so, yet still have a svengali-like deathgrip over their voting power. THAT is sickening.

EdenMaster Wrote:"Forcing" gay marriage upon us? Hardly the right choice of words, my friend. When you say it such as that, it makes it seem as though soon we'll all be forced INTO gay marriages. In allowing gays to marriage, all we are forcing ourselves to do is accept them for who they are, and who they are, is different. A different lifestyle than our own. America was founded for such tolerance.

To hell with them, right? To hell with any ideals different from our own! Yes! Let us not allow these different people the freedom to celebrate their love because it doesn't fit with our narrow view of society! Oppression will make America strong!

You can't honestly think that way, Ryan. You're smarter than that. If you despise the KKK such as I do for baselessly hating blacks, then how can you rightly throw stones at gays simply because they, too, are different? Are you truly so narrow-minded?

That's harsh to say. You need to read what I said more closely.

I do not like the idea of gay marriage. I know it will happen eventually, however, and I do not hate it with fervent passion like many people do. I've actually grown less worried about it over time, but the idea is still repugnant to me, and I can't see that changing.

But most people in America do not like the idea, and believe that it further trivializes traditional marriage. Liberals love to point out that marriage is increasingly worthless (mostly thanks to ever-decreasing moral standards), so what does one more attack hurt? It's like intentionally injuring a person and justifying it by saying the person was going to die eventually anyway. But obviously, most Americans know this is stupid reasoning, and their opinion resonated at the polls five days ago. They correctly saw the democratic process being circumvented in the liberals' approach to make gay marriage possible in America.

I think the backlash against gay marriage was not just a Christian reaction. I think it was also a message to liberals, teaching them it's not a good idea to abuse the judicial system to force their agendas on everyone else, which is essentially what they did in Massachusetts. It was a reaction against the methods for many people, I think. It was the flashpoint, and that the topic was gay marriage was more of a periphery. Note that I firmly believe gay marriage will be a reality in America in my lifetime, because each generation of Americans is more tolerant than the one before it. Someday our children will be the power and voice of this nation, and they will likely see things differently than we do on many things, and I think acceptance of gay marriage will be one of those things. If gay marriage comes into existence nationwide in the future, it will be because a majority of Americans WANT it to be. Right now, a majority of Americans do NOT want it to be, and it should not be, because of this. That is how the democratic process works. The will of the people is enforced, even though there isn't unanimous agreement.

Therefore, my opinion on gay marriage is irrelevant to the topic at hand, as Virginia already has laws banning it, thus it was not part of my state's referendum and I did not vote on it. I'm merely showing why the measures failed, and why they will for some time.

Okay, but let me revive your metaphor for the acceptance of blacks. The majority of the people all those years ago wanted nothing to do with racial equality. Black were <i>not</i> equal, they were inferior. However their acceptance did not happen simply due to a change in generations. Things change when people push the envelope. Things like the first school in Alabama accepting black students (forget the name, Green-something right?), Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat, Martin Luther King's speech, and other such events lead to the eventual acceptance of blacks that we have today.

I think the people fighting for gay marraige know that if nothing happens, nothing will change. They need to push things forward a bit every so often. I agree that for the most part, gay marriage is still not accepted and that will likely not change for some time, but baby steps are the way to go for these people. Eventually, they'll be accepted. I agree with you on that.

My problem with the whole thing is why it's such a controversial subject. I see no possible way that it can harm society or the world by letting two people who love one another get hitched, regardless of their genders.

It's not all about what people want either. How many American people do you think "wanted" to go to war with Iraq?

EdenMaster Wrote:Okay, but let me revive your metaphor for the acceptance of blacks. The majority of the people all those years ago wanted nothing to do with racial equality. Black were not equal, they were inferior. However their acceptance did not happen simply due to a change in generations. Things change when people push the envelope. Things like the first school in Alabama accepting black students (forget the name, Green-something right?), Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat, Martin Luther King's speech, and other such events lead to the eventual acceptance of blacks that we have today.

I think the people fighting for gay marraige know that if nothing happens, nothing will change. They need to push things forward a bit every so often. I agree that for the most part, gay marriage is still not accepted and that will likely not change for some time, but baby steps are the way to go for these people. Eventually, they'll be accepted. I agree with you on that.

My problem with the whole thing is why it's such a controversial subject. I see no possible way that it can harm society or the world by letting two people who love one another get hitched, regardless of their genders.

It's not all about what people want either. How many American people do you think "wanted" to go to war with Iraq?

I agree that blacks would have gotten nowhere by merely waiting for change. The point, however, is that they made the greatest efforts when people were most receptive to their plight. Had the exact same events of the civil rights movement occurred a generation earlier, not a damn thing would have been accomplished, for people were simply less tolerant. The leaders of the civil rights movement very wisely probed the political climate of the time and they correctly felt that the time was right for a serious push for equality.

Plus, I can't really equate the plight of blacks to gays, because I still firmly believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle and not a physical condition, and I will continue to believe this as long as there remains to be an absence of any sort of solid scientific data proving it is some sort of biological abnormality. Furthermore, I don't know why people think getting married is a 'right'. I can't honestly remember anything in the US Constitution mandating marriage, and, there are plenty of limits on it, even for straight people. And, of course, what is to stop a person from claiming biology makes them want to marry a child, or multiple people, or their dog? I believe marriage should be man and woman because that is how correct biology works. Choices in life have consequences, and if you desire to live differently from the accepted norm, you have to accept the fact that you can't do things in a radically different way and expect to get the same benefits people who play by the rules get.

My decision is not out of hatred or fear for gay people, because I hate very few people and I fear only people who are dangerous, and for the most part, I like to judge a person by their personal merits. I feel that I choose not to be gay, I also feel that I could be gay if I decided I wanted to be. I don't think there's a single aspect of my physical biology that prevents me from engaging in homosexuality. I do not believe my genes influence any decisions I make, and I know I choose to be a heterosexual man. And I know that people who are not choose not to be, even though few will ever admit it, because their political cause will dissolve.

You can call it intolerance if you wish, I don't really care. I call it taking personal responsibility, and I think that I not only believe in it, but apply it to my own life, is why my life is more stable than most people my age.

Quote:The Democrats are masters of such practices. They have brought utter ruination to blacks socially over the last 35 years or so, yet still have a svengali-like deathgrip over their voting power. THAT is sickening.

You repeat this over and over but the only "evidence" you provide is so shaky it's absurd...

And if the reaction to gay marriage wasn't relgious, what was it? I don't see you providing any alternative sources in your denials!

Quote:Plus, I can't really equate the plight of blacks to gays, because I still firmly believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle and not a physical condition, and I will continue to believe this as long as there remains to be an absence of any sort of solid scientific data proving it is some sort of biological abnormality. Furthermore, I don't know why people think getting married is a 'right'. I can't honestly remember anything in the US Constitution mandating marriage, and, there are plenty of limits on it, even for straight people. And, of course, what is to stop a person from claiming biology makes them want to marry a child, or multiple people, or their dog? I believe marriage should be man and woman because that is how correct biology works. Choices in life have consequences, and if you desire to live differently from the accepted norm, you have to accept the fact that you can't do things in a radically different way and expect to get the same benefits people who play by the rules get.

See my point? The difference is made by saying that gays are choosing to be gay. One of the stupidest things I have ever heard, but it's all the moral backing people like this need... it's not religious? Well what is it? "Moral"? Where do your morals mostly come from? Yeah, religion. Your defence here is nonexistant beyond denial. Now, I can see in some ways where religion got the bias from -- after all, sex is here for the continuation of the species. Homosexuality does not do that. So it's "abnormal". Okay. But... it's the 21st century now! We know so much more about how people work and society and ... everything ... ! We know that there really is not a "normal" like used to be imagined. There are continuums. Homosexuality? We do not know the source right now. But we will at some point and it is gauranteed to not be a choice that the person ever made, conciously or not.

Then fundamentalists like you will have to stop hiding behind your "choice" garbage and admit your opinions to be what they are: hate speech enacted into law.

You know, you say what you say, but there's never proof to back it up.

So, tell me, you say there's no choice involved. I am a heterosexual, and I know that I am. Yet, I am totally, 100% certain that I could engage in homosexual behavior if I felt like it. What part of my biology can possibly prevent me from doing it even if I consciously decided to? After all, you claim that gays are physically and/or mentally incapable of being heterosexual. Logic would only dictate the same rules apply to straight people.

Be a man and actually answer this question. You get so annoyingly dodgy when you get cornered. I think it's because you know the only possible correct answer totally disputes your whole position on the matter. But at least be a sport and try.

Biology? Of course physically homosexuals could have heterosexual sex, but that has very little to do with it, as we've been over so many times before... having sex with a man doesn't make you homosexual. It means you had homosexual sex sure, but it doesn't make you homosexual. That term means different feelings -- that is, how they would see the same gender to be attractive instead of the opposite one. That does not mystically happen as soon as someone has a homosexual relationship! That idea is stupid!

I guess you are basing your case on the idea that people can convince themselves of most anything. This is true. And in certain situations people probably have convinced themselves that the same gender is attractive in some way when they're normally heterosexual. However, the difference between them and homosexuals becomes clear as soon as they are around the other gender again...

And you keep ignoring the fact that some animals, which we as the human race quite well know are not nearly as intelligent as we are, can be homosexual too. So animals "choose" to be homosexual too? Umm... I think that that's giving them more mental credit than a lot of species have...

And, if anyone can name a single human emotion or preference of any sort that has been proven by science to be the singular result of biological development, now's the time to show the world.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. Such things don't exist.

I find it quite funny that you deny the existence of God because his existence cannot be proven scientifically, yet you tirelessly adhere to the idea that sexual preference is biological, even though there's not a shred of scientific proof to support it, and basic biology, psychology, and logic are both in total contrast to the very idea of it. In all the years I've debated this subject with you, you've never even attempted to satisfy my demand for proof to justify your position, and you just dismiss everything I say as 'absurd'. You are irritating to debate with, because you are close-minded and lack even enough imagination and knowledge to be able to see the massive flaws in your stance.

Think about that, before you call me mindless for my religious beliefs.

When the science behind it isn't really understood yet, it isn't really fully understood yet... what am I supposed to do, guess? We don't know the exact cause of homosexuality. What we do know is that people who are homosexual all have very similar things to say about how they realized it. It was a slow realization that came on with puberty. Many people surpressed it and tried to live "normal" lives, but it just doesn't work well... you can try to convince yourself that it's "right", but when you physically do not feel that way it just does not work. Slow realization with puberty exactly like with everyone else except they see the other gender as attractive. That is homosexuality. What is the cause? We don't know, specifically, but just knowing that about what it IS rules out concious choice.

I think it's not all about choice, Ryan. Some of it does have to do with your mental state and how you percieve things. For instance, I am heterosexual, and thus, I am aroused by females. I would not in any way have such feelings for a male. It just isn't in my nature, it's not what I'm wired to feel. I don't feel as confident that, if I felt like it, to go and do such a thing because my body wouldn't think it's the right course of action.

How can you not equate blacks and gays? Gay people have been murdered, tortured, and mocked for the way they are. Sound familiar? Black suffered similar hardships during their time of acceptance. This is not different. Their plights are VERY similar. To say that blacks and gays are of a different kind of acceptance is absurd, they're practically the same.

In Canada 54% of the population support gay marriage the number goes up to aroudn 70% when asked if they support gay unions. In the last federal election the 3 parties that had giving gays the right to marry as key points in their platform won well over half of the seats in the house of commons.

EM, he'll just repeat that same thing about it being a choice...

I'm just happy to have an argument not involving OB1 :D.

But you are never in arguments with me...

I can join in this one if you'd like!

My personal beliefs are that marriage is something sacred that is meant for men and women (since the primary purpose of having two different sexes is to reproduce), but that this belief should not be forced upon anyone. This is between each person and God or whoever or whatever they believe or do not believe in, and nobody has the right to force their religious beliefs upon others. I also do not think that homosexuality is a choice, and I think that science will eventually prove this. However I also don't think that it's natural, and I don't see how anyone could think it is if they understand the purpose of sexual attraction and intercourse. Most importantly, though, I believe that all gay people should be treated with the same kind of respect that we are supposed to show to everyone else, and that they should not be prejudiced against. And that includes giving them the same freedoms that heterosexuals have. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. That includes forcing personal religious beliefs upon others.

Since when was marriage a 'right' or a 'freedom'?

Marriage is a privelege. Like any privelege, conditions have to be met. Having children isn't a right either. It's easy enough to make your own, but see how easy it is to adopt one. Families in particular and society in general has been in a slow and steady decline over the last several decades. There are few who would be stupid enough to dispute this. The reason for this is that moral standards are being erased. Marrying someone and having children used to be a very big deal, and it's no coincidence that family ties were much stronger in the past. Now, you have a society of broken homes, of child support and alimony, and as a result, you have a society of children who aspire to become criminals because the shitty musicians they idolize tell them this is good, and they lack the discipline and wisdom they would have otherwise enjoyed from a stable family.

Sure, legalizing gay marriage won't START the collapse, it's been going on for years now. But a stable, heterosexual couple is undoubtedly the most optimal for raising a good family. Just because liberals have been working on destroying the American family for forty years successfully is no reason to damage it further.

Whatever gay people want to do in their own bedrooms is fine with me. But they are not normal, and they won't (or can't, if you prefer) play by the rules of society. They should not find it suprising that society doesn't want to damage itself to assauge their flaws. If they want families, they can do it the way everyone else does. If they can't deal with it, too bad. Because damage will be done, if this goes through: A new generation with even less morality and stability, and who can say how long it will be before polygamists, bigamists, bestials or other such social misfits decide it's time THEY had equal rights because THEY were born to marry multiple partners, or children, or cute little puppies or trees, or whatever. They would be supplying an argument with as much weight as the 'homosexuality is biological' crowd, because if one form of sexual deviance is natural, all of them MUST be.

The argument that it would hurt marriage is just as stupid and completely, totally wrong as the rest of your arguement. As I've said before, it would do the exact opposite in the long run. Getting people who are together into a legal partership cannot be anything other than good for society. I cannot imagine any possible way that the result could be anything else and the facts of what has happened in the places where it has been implemented verify that. It not only does not hurt marriage but it helps it. After all, more people are making their relationships official! It would mean all kinds of things for homosexuals... prime among them the legal benifits marriage brings (hospital visitation, getting onto insurance policies, etc, etc). Can a 'civil union' setup do those same benifits? Yes it can, and that would be a great start. The biggest unfair thing is not allowing homosexuals to have the same rights everyone else has, and civil unions, with equal benifits to marriage legally, would rectify that great injustice.

And it would help society as a whole because you're reinforcing the idea that long-term partnerships are a good thing. This would actually HELP marriage, not hurt it! I cannot even begin to understand how anyone can say anything else and not admit that they are saying it 100% because of religion...

Normal? There is no "normal". Yes, it's obviously not the ideal for the species because it will not continue the species, but we tolerate disabled people (who were born with disabilities for whatever reason, whether genetic or not) and minorities so how is this any different?

The answer is that it is not.