Tendo City

Would you be happy?

That's too vague---peace everywhere, as in no more war or even crime anywhere on Earth?

Sure, why not?

I'd hit it.

:D

That leaves only one enemy left.

Those damned martians.

And the Jovians!!

Humans are violent. Peace is impossible, on that scale.

All living things are competitive, and as violent as they have the capacity to be. It's not just humans.

Yeah, ever watch two monkey packs fight it out? Ever seen a killer whale drag a seal off the beach and bounce it around like a beach ball in an OBVIOUS attempt JUST to have fun with another killer whale and they never even eat it, just kinda get bored and toss it away? Humans just are smarter about it. All other creatures with brains are cruel in their own rights.

Even ones without brains. Like, a weed that chokes grass, or a bacterium that destroys whatever it touches.

But the thing is if it waisnt for the killer whales , Polar bears, Sharks the seals would continue to overpopulate and drain the fishing stocks and eventually they would eat themselves out of house and home , Finally the seals would starve too death.

Right now the seals are a scourge on new found land , The cod fish are endangerd and the rising seal population is eating them all.New found landers would love too go and start hunting those critters again, But they cant thanks too tree huging hippies who think the seals are cute and have no understanding of natural balance.

Natural balance... yeah, that is important. That's why I'm not against hunting deer, for instance. I know that since we killed off the wolves we have to hunt deer or they will overpopulate and eat all the food and then starve... not good. Keeping them in balance is important and at this point only hunting can do that...

Humans, however. We are smarter than any other animals, so you'd like to think we could do more about this... and we could if we tried, but a lot of people don't try very hard.

A Black Falcon Wrote:Humans are violent. Peace is impossible, on that scale.

I never said it was a realistic goal.

They did a experiment in canada , PEI is a small province that is serperated by sea and isolated from the mainland in regards too animal migration.

They wanted too see how ,am not sure if it was deer or Moose or somthing like that would do if they were introduced into a enclosed section of PEI which had no predators or anything to reduce the population,around 8 females and 12 males were choosen to create a good gene pool and then they left them too live freely in the enclosed area of 16 acres.

If you have ever been too PEI it isnt a very rocky region, It is mostly all grassland and hills.

So the deer population went from 20 too 80 and then by three years there were hundreds of them . Eventually they picked all the grass and feilds clean and then large portions of the deer/moose, started too become under nurished since the land didnt create enough food to support the growing population and then hundreds died in the winter and the population shrank all the way back too 30-40 .

A Black Falcon Wrote:Natural balance... yeah, that is important. That's why I'm not against hunting deer, for instance. I know that since we killed off the wolves we have to hunt deer or they will overpopulate and eat all the food and then starve... not good. Keeping them in balance is important and at this point only hunting can do that...

Humans, however. We are smarter than any other animals, so you'd like to think we could do more about this... and we could if we tried, but a lot of people don't try very hard.

We're smarter than any animal, by far, but we're still far from perfect.

The only way world peace could even hope to exist is if everyone were a mindless, conformed zombie. Who would want to live like that?

Sure, world peace SOUNDS good, but it would make existence extraordinarily boring.

Not by too far mind you. On a pure technical standpoint, the difference between a dog's brain and a computer is so much greater than the difference between a dog's brain and a human's brain. It's still a big jump mind you, but it's more in the sense of design than power.

I think this was supposed to be universal peace, so the martians would be in on it too, but I still wouldn't trust them... Being all "I don't actually exist" and such...
Jerks...

Weltall, I was actually saying that humans aren't the only ones capable of cruel malicious behavior, not just that we aren't the only ones capable of violence.

Ya know Weltall, if that's the case then when do we humans ever find a time of utter peace? In heaven for sure, but would we all have to become mindless zombies for peace to work in heaven? Can it be possible that anyone could fall even while up there, and what happens to them? I'd hate to think like some Christians I know in that they think some will still sin in Heaven and when they do they are instantly sent to hell. An eternity later, no one's left up there. What would the point of salvation be if total peace wasn't possible?

For that matter, are you sure total peace is as boring as you assume? Personally I've never been a fan of conflict, nor am I bored when none is around. I strive to improve myself but aren't out to beat anyone. Is your idea of complete peace a world where no one is playing competitive games? Well, I can still imagine a way to be happy without having to compete with anyone, and still have some events and such (picnics are fun, as is flying kites and such, there's lots to do without competition), but I don't consider competing on friendly terms to be anti-peace at all. When it gets too far and people start actually getting mad at the other person, or like people who actually HATE the other team BECAUSE they are competting (you know, utterly forgetting the point and should be shot?), then it's like that, but not all competition is like that.

We're smarter than the rest of the animals sure but as everyone knows are far from perfect and animal instincts still have a lot of importance...

Which is exactly why I plan on replacing my body with a big tub of nanobots.

The bible says a large crowd will stay on earth and live as healthy imortal human beings, I think that is a better existence then some fairy with a harp.

What on Earth are you talking about? The Bible says nothing about people becoming angels. They are a seperate race. For that matter, peace will be on Earth as well as Heaven. Also, where in the Bible is a harp ever once mentioned?

Nanotech, that's the life for me.

The smartest animals are some of the great apes. They can be as smart as a young (what was it, 3 or 4 years old?) human child...

No, WE are the smartest, then dolphins, then apes. Poachers need to be hunting them instead of stupider animals like the elephant. I wouldn't put any of those animals as being as smart as a 3 or 4 year old kid though. They can play video games at that age and talk, and CREATE.

According to some TV shows I've seen anyway some apes (Chimps maybe? But some others too... remember Koko the gorilla...) are as smart as young children. Remember they can learn several hundred words (I think) in sign language... but at some point, they can't learn any more. Like us but at a far lower level... that's all any animal is...

As for dolphins, they are obviously also smart but I think exactly how smart is contraversial... of course the fact that they are in the oceans sure doesn't help that much.

They can learn individual words, so can some birds (and not just mimicry, but meaning), but grammar completely elludes them. Grammar is like super important for our success. The only concept more important to that is elcutletack, which is a concept that humans could never understand. Um, I think I've said too much...

I think they successfuly taught over a 100 sign language gestures to gorrilias.

Yeah. As for birds... I don't know. I have yet to be convinced that they can do anything more than just mimick the sounds with no understanding (of what they are saying certainly)...

But some great apes are as smart as a young child. That's not too smart on human terms but compared to anything else out there...

I think they successfuly taught over a 100 sign language gestures to gorrilias.


Wow--that's amazing. It's almost like they're our distant relatives or something. In fact, if the Good Book didn't say otherwise, I'd almost think that humans were the evolutionary advancement of apes. Oh well.

Darunia Wrote:I think they successfuly taught over a 100 sign language gestures to gorrilias.


Wow--that's amazing. It's almost like they're our distant relatives or something. In fact, if the Good Book didn't say otherwise, I'd almost think that humans were the evolutionary advancement of apes. Oh well.

Eh... we're not the evolutionary advancement of apes, regardless. The common belief among evolutionaries is that apes and humans are spinoffs of a common ancestor.

Regardless. My sarcastic lampoon is still effective.

Not really, as you're assuming that every Christian interprets the Bible verbatim. Many do not. I am one of them.

Parrots can say 50-100 phrases and even hole songs, Does that mean were all fucking tweety bird decendants!All it is imitation and repetition.
Ive even heard of dogs who can moan words in english.

Here is a Qoute from the New scientist magazine which is from the UK.

Quote:A recent analysis of the DNA of chimpanzees and orangutans, As well as certain monkeys and macaques,Has revealed that their genetic makeup is not as similar to man's as once thought. "Large differences in DNA, Not small ones seperate apes and monkeys from both humans and each other". There are large deletions and insertions sprinkled throughout the chromosome", Explains Kelly Frazer of perlegen sciences, The california,U.S.A.,Company that did the analysis. New Scientist characterized the differences as a "yawning gap [that] divides monkeys and us"

http://www.newscientist.com/

What the hell is with you people---you scoff and call it rediculous to believe that humans evolve from apes, but it's completely acceptably believable to believe that all-powerful deities spawn from nothing, only to disappear?

Something good happens = Thanks, God! He's always there for us!

Something bad happens = We must've made God mad--this is our fault.
(or) ...That's Satan for you!

Darunia, what the hell are you talking about? Where do you get these ideas? Christians don't believe God spawned from nothing and then suddenly vanished. Maybe you assume we'd HAVE to believe that, but whatever...

Your other statements are just blind assumptions and generalizations. Yeesh, when we get into a Christian discussion, just stay out if you can't be nice. Go on, get out of here. That's right, it's a horrible conspiracy, whatever, just go.

ASM, I was not once saying anything about us COMING from birds. I'm saying they DO have that ability and it's proven. It's a very tough thing for them to do, and they can't comprehend more than an individual word's meaning (so they can't comprehend grammar, and thus won't ever be able to understand the full meaning of phrases as we do, such as "man bites dog", where it might know what a man is, a dog is, and what the action of biting is, but it couldn't know the relationship is between those words.

Quote:
but it's completely acceptably believable to believe that all-powerful deities spawn from nothing, only to disappear?

How did reality suddenly appear ? If you believe in evolution then you most also believe that things spawned out of nothing,The earth just out of pure luck of trillions odds didnt turn into a acid furnace like venus, The earth could hold life and some how little tiny complexe microbes appeared and then life spread from there.

When it comes too the very start of life down to little tiny parasites , Scientist have failed too give a solid explination as too how even this low form of life started, They have tested in labs trying too reproduce basic evolution using protein and ameno acids they have all failed and havent even given just a slight infinitesimal sign of change.

Is the idea that it was crafted and engineered by a highly inteligent powerful entity any less possible.Many even think aliens created humans but who am I to say their crazy

Dark Jaguar has said everything that needs too be said.I salute him for being balanced and non judgemental.

Where do you get these ideas? Christians don't believe God spawned from nothing and then suddenly vanished.

Oh, that's right, he never appeared or was created---he's ALWAYS been. I forgot. That's far more credible.

Your other statements are just blind assumptions and generalizations.

YOU'RE calling what I believe 'assumptions'...?

Go on, get out of here. That's right, it's a horrible conspiracy, whatever, just go.

*Sulks and pouts*

How did reality suddenly appear ?

How did God appear--neither can be proven. I find it easier to believe that "reality" suddenly spawned than an omnipowerful, all-knowing, eternal being has ALWAYS existed.

When it comes too the very start of life down to little tiny parasites , Scientist have failed too give a solid explination as too how even this low form of life started, They have tested in labs trying too reproduce basic evolution using protein and ameno acids they have all failed and havent even given just a slight infinitesimal sign of change.

I see. So, a god must've created it. Am I talking to a mature adult in the 21st century, or a ignorant Sumerian priest. Millenia had passed and humanity still turns to the boogy man, demons and gods to explain the inexplicable.

Is the idea that it was crafted and engineered by a highly inteligent powerful entity any less possible.

Yes---highly so.

Many even think aliens created humans but who am I to say their crazy

You're not crazy, you're ignorant. They're ignorant and crazy. And I'm just crazy (but not ignorant.)

Dark Jaguar has said everything that needs too be said. I salute him for being balanced and non judgemental.

In order for someone to be unbiased and non judgemental, they'd have to be without any affiliation in the matter at question. Since he's a Christian, he is neitehr balanced nor judgemental.

I'd reply to that, but that's absolutely nothing to be gained from putting myself into the middle of this. And there's also the little fact that nothing good will EVER come out of discussions like these.

Actually ASM, you're wrong. I was being VERY unbalanced and WAS judgemental there. My point, put a little too bluntly, was that that was more or less a conversation over the finer points of things among us Christians. We weren't exactly out to debate the actual notion of believing it in the first place. Darunia however was out for blood.

And Darunia, as for you, you assumed to know what we think, so yes I am claiming you have blind assumptions. This has nothing to do with how everything came to be. You assume too much, likely because you had to sit through speeches by fundamentalists or something. While I weep for that if that's the case, bear in mind you can't judge the majority of us by the actions of those who, as far as I can tell by their behavior, likely aren't Christians themselves.

And to take GR's advice, I'll stay out of this no matter your response. Not like something that centers around blind faith such as religion can really be proven anyway, so why try?

Darunia = Attention Whore

Just ignore him. Eventually he'll tire himself out.

What makes the idea of Gods existence so unacceptable to you? You have no evidence to the contrary and yet to throw the idea out the window without even listening. How can you call yourself fair and balanced without knowing the other side of the story? You know basic religious beliefs but don't know much. Nor do I, I'm not a steady church going person, but I hold my beliefs because I've found no reason not to. I've found no evidence at all which suggests my beliefs are wrong, so I have no reason to question them. I believe in God, I believe what happened in the Bible, and I believe that there is an omnipresent diety around us. Why not? I don't know what sits underneath a boulder but I feel safe in assuming that it's dirt. I don't know what ASM looks like but I assume he's human (that may be a bad assumption...). Why is this any different? I simply want to know why you scoff at these beliefs so.

We cannot change years of ignorance and intolerance that was spooned fed to are freindly Goron anymore then we can convince the Hutus and the Tutsies that its just old irelevant tribe blood feuds, Their both black and have the same feelings and desires.

Quote:Am I talking to a mature adult in the 21st century, or a ignorant Sumerian priest. Millenia had passed and humanity still turns to the boogy man, demons and gods to explain the inexplicable.

Why does the goverment fund the O.S.I.R.? Because strange things happen and that todays simple science cannot explain.Reality is stranger then fiction.
Regardless of how many centuries past mysticism and the unknown will always fascinate people,Its part of our very phyche,You cant arogantly dismiss it but you cannot stop it.

That being said what does it matter too you what I and DJ ,Edenmaster think.
Case Closed !
Fin ~

I've never understood what makes him so virulently anti-Christian. It's not just religion in general, he seems to have a nasty hatred for those who believe in Christ. Hell, even ABF is a Godless heathen and he doesn't hate Christians any more than he hates Jews and Muslims. Darunia just has it in for us and I don't know why.

I mean, he cannot explain anything, but he seems determined that the correct answer is the polar opposite of what we believe, no matter what. My way of thinking is that nothing in human history has endured the way that faith in the true God has, and God's three religions still dominate the world. Even in a time where mankind is more arrogant and self-absorbed than ever before, faith in God persists. There has to be a reason that is, when empires rise and fall, and other beliefs decline and die out, that God lives and is strong.

It's okay, Darunia. Jesus loves us all and He can forgive even you.

:D

I applause DJ's movements towards peace. He's opened my eyes to the fact that I was indeed being hostile in an unprovoke (albeit ignorant) Christian gathering, and such being the case, I shall abdicate from this thread.

Best wishes,

~~Emperor Darunius VII of the Goron Peoples

Religion doesn't make logical sense in the modern world. Science does not have all the answers but it has many and we know that given enough time science will explain much more. Saying 'we do not know so God did it' is utter idiocy, like the Big Bang.

So why belief? Tradition and human psyche, probably... over thousands of years it got burned in and while it's not quite like our base instincts (not just sex but basic social things like 'killing people in your group is wrong'...), it's clearly got a lot of momentum and that has a power all its own... belief leads to belief and people believe. Retreating in scope (God didn't create the world in 7 days or put the Earth in the center of the universe), but believed in in some amount anyway... at this point I don't think there is much of any true logical backing for God (unlike primitive man saying 'i do not have any way of understanding how this all came to be'), but we have believed in deities forever and it's far too late to turn back now.

Just like this...

A) You're on a trolley, at the controls at a split in the tracks. If it goes straight it'll hit and kill 5 people. If you hit the switch and turn it'll hit and kill one person. What do you do?

B) You're on a bridge over a straight track. A trolley is approaching. It will hit and kill 5 people. There is a fat man in front of you. If you sneak up behind him and push him off it'll be enough to slow down the train so the 5 will live. What do you do?

Our basic instincts say scenario B is wrong because it is murder but not so for A because there is a machine in between, something primitive man did not conceive... that one you can think of much more rationally.

Religion is a bit different but I can see some similarities between these...

Oh, and it's not ALL bad. Religion helps calm people from anxiety, make people happy or give them will to fight disease (and belief you will get better in many cases helps for some reason), and other things...

I feel for you, brother, but don't bother. Vous avez beau. They won't listen.

We don't need a missionary to tell us we're believing the 'wrong' thing. It reinforces my opinion that atheism is a religion all to itself.

Though, the difference between you and ABF is that ABF states why he doesn't believe, but you seem to hold a nasty grudge against anyone who does.

ABF, that's certainly not the way I view that situation. Why would it matter if there is a machine involved? The body isn't actually a part of one's soul, but a tool, albeit a squishy one. I certainly would view using a gun to kill someone with the same evil as using one's own fists to do the job.

In your examples, they appear exactly the same and produce a different conflict, the one you should have went with. The "lesser of two evils" paradox. Now then, I don't believe such a situation will ever occur. No one who is so evil as to engineer such a conundrum will ever be capable of actually putting it all together and doing it. Your examples are also solvable without killing anyone. First off, a fat man wouldn't be enough to slow down that trolley. Assuming it would, why do that? There's always another way. I have taken a very Vash attitude towards things like that. There's always a way to save everybody if you just think hard enough. For example, why not YELL at the 5 people to MOVE THEIR ARSES. Easy solution there.

In the first example, throw the switch midway but not all the way. This will jam the tracks and cause the trolley to derail, but everyone will survive.

Humanity is far from a perfect evolution. We are just a continuation of the primate family, and the most developed life form yet known. We are the masters of the planet by our own assertion. Having said that, and as far advanced and developed as our minds are, humanity as a whole is still naïve and ignorant. As a whole, humanity is still imprisoned in the mental confines of religion. The extent to which humanity can evolve is still shackled; still held down. Until we can let go of our tiresome beliefs in eternal salvation and omnipotent deities, we will forever be less than what we could be.
The main arguments for and against religion are, ironically the same; neither side can be proven. For millennia, religious people have prayed to their God(s), and the atheists of the world have yearned for reason. This continues today.
Thousands of years have passed of human history, and countless forgotten religions and beliefs have come and gone; risen and faded, and been worshipped by millions with as much candor as today’s religions. Today, we discredit all of these ancient religions; yet somehow, humanity is arrogant and ignorant enough to believe that our contemporary religions are somehow different from those of the past. Somehow, contemporary theologians can say that the theologians of yesterday were all wrong and didn’t know any better, yet they themselves are in the same position. How can anyone be so ignorant? How are Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all the rest any different from the religions of the Greek gods, or the Egyptians? Well, what are the similarities between them…today, as back on those days, people blindly devoted their lives to religion. Half the fun and mystery was that it was a blind faith; a good person would blindly follow their faith, without ever questioning it. This must require a certain amount of, blatantly put, stupidity. Does no one think for them selves anymore? We simply believe that which we are told growing up, and our logic never evolves any further? A Christian knows that his religion is true; let so does a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian or any other theologian. These religions agree on some things to an extent, but on the whole, are different. They’re similar in as much as that they all demand blind loyalty, and only taking the word of previous generations that it’s true. Without ever seeing their deities, or anything particularly supernatural, people live all of their lives—give everything they have—to worshipping figments of their imaginations.
Religious people scoff at agnostics, free-thinkers and atheists as being afraid of believing, or afraid to open their eyes and make a leap of blind faith. The same can be turned around, though—why do they not think straight and ponder with reason instead of desire whether or not god exists. Whence there is next to no tangible evidence that he has ever existed, (no, the fact that the Earth exists doesn’t count), one would think it wouldn’t even be much of a debate.
Napoleon Bonaparte put it succinctly with “religion is very good stuff for keeping the masses happy.” Religion is, as I put it, a sedative for the curious mind. Governor Jesse Ventura called it a crutch for the weak-minded. It and keeps us content in our otherwise unbearably pointless and brief lives. It also helps explain…well, everything. Any mystery in nature? God did it. Why is the sky blue, why do we feel pain? God did it. Doesn’t it strike anyone else as a little suspicious that a being whom none of us have ever see or heard (in fact, we’ve only read about it in a 2,000 year old tome,) is somehow all around us, and controls our destinies, yet never reveals itself? He loves us all, and created us in his image (yet who created his image,) and wants us to believe in him, yet will furnish no evidence to the skeptical. Does he want us to be intelligent and evolve; naturally, the superior mind questions everything around it. Unless we’re but sheep to be herded, Isn’t it natural that people question religion? That being so, why doesn’t God reveal himself to the masses, or in some other way prove his existence? Why does he play these games of blind faith versus eternal hellfire? Wouldn’t it just be the slightest bother to perhaps appear in the sky and reveal himself to the masses, and forever prove himself and save all of humanity from disbelief? Would that be too easy? Otherwise, why would the Christian god create a race of flawed beings, and then blame them for the way they are? No one chooses to be atheist; no one chooses to be raised as a Christian. We have no power over who our parents are, and we cannot choose to believe anything, anymore than we can choose who we love. Belief, like love, is spontaneous; we can only go along for the ride. One doesn’t choose to believe anything—belief and faith are, like all emotions, based upon our minds. So, since we cannot ever CHOOSE to believe in something we don’t already believe in, thusly, it is definitely beyond our power to save ourselves (assuming that it is by blind belief in God that we are saved.)
I understand that there are many cliques of Christianity, and no two believe in the exact same thing. Some don’t believe in hell, some don’t respect the organized religion of the Vatican, some believe different theories about the Holy Trinity, etc. Doesn’t this also discredit them---that there are so many different takes on Christianity, they can’t all be right. Using common sense, if there are so many varying degrees and classes of Christianity, only one can be truly right, or none can be right at all. Or perhaps God is a laid-back individual, who doesn’t really care what you believe in, as long as he gets his prayers—in which case, our only purpose is to worship him. Doesn’t this make him vain—creating all of existence simply to worship him—and since vanity is a sin, isn’t God also a hypocrite?



Some of the stronger anti-religion statements are as follows:

1.) If God is real, and wants all of us to believe in him and thusly earn passage to Heaven, why doesn’t he reveal himself to the masses, and thusly prove beyond any doubt to all humanity that he does exist, and thusly save us all forever?
2.) Why does he allow so much suffering, doubt and ignorance to exist in the world he created?
3.) The Bible decidedly ignores the existence of the other solar planets, and the very existence of space. We now know that there are very many numerous other planets in the infinite universe. What purpose do they serve? They play no role in the Bible at all.
4.) The human body is definitely flawed; and yet if Man is created in God’s image, does this not also mean that the perfect God is also flawed?
5.) God condemned snakes to slither on the ground in return for having tempted Eve (Genesis.) If such a means of living is so terrible and degrading, what did worms do?
6.) Talking snakes roamed the Earth 5,000 years ago? Really…
7.) The Bible tells in detail how God created the Earth and man, and how the world is only approximately 6,006 years old (as told in my 1870 King James’ Bible). Science has time and time again disavowed and proven this timeline false.
8.) The Bible tells how all animals were made to serve and be subordinate to man (Genesis 1:26) If this is true, why do animals even today continue to injure and kill humans…? Shouldn’t they all be docile in best serving God?
9.) A prominent, recurring theme of Christianity is forgiveness. If that is true, why does God not forgive Adam and Eve for Eve’s having eaten the forbidden fruit of the Garden of Eden? Furthermore, why does he make all of humanity suffer eternally for it…? Furthermore still, if the fruit was forbidden and never to be touched, what purpose did it serve, and why did he put it there, within reach and sight of the humans who, imperfect as we are could be easily tempted? Wasn’t this a trap waiting to happen?
10.) In Genesis, God created man first, and later woman. Whereas Man was created instantaneously by God, Woman had to be taken from one of Adam’s ribs…this is simply ridiculous; wouldn’t it have been easier to have just spontaneously created a Woman too? Furthermore, why a rib?
11.) God made man in all his form. Surely, this including reproductive genitalia. Then, as an afterthought, God later created woman from one of Adam’s ribs…why didn’t he create man and woman together? If not to reproduce with a woman, what were the penis and testicles for originally…? Using logic, if not to reproduce with, they could only realistically be used for masturbating to obtain self-sexual gratification. Does this then not mean that masturbation is acceptable, despite the Catholic Church being against it?
12.) If God made man in his image, and Eve could not resist temptation, doesn’t this also mean that God himself is susceptible to similar things?
13.) Why did God create humanity with only a minority believing in him from the start? If we believe the Bible, at the time of Jesus, Christians were only deciphals of Jesus, and other non-Christian believers comprised the other 99.99% of humanity. Why did he leave it up to those few who believed in him to go out and convert “all other heathen?” Why didn’t he just snap his fingers and have all of humanity believe in him? Furthermore, since the world was evenly populated, why did Jesus only appear in the Middle East—isn’t it unfair to the other people all around the world? Did they all go to hell for lack of Jesus ever getting to them?
14.) Since it is a sin to have any other god(s) before “the one, true god”, does that mean that 5 out of ever 6 people alive today await eternal damnation?
15.) If God can indeed do anything, can he make a rock so large than even he can’t move it? (A childish riddle, but very true. The logic is impeccable.)
16.) God is eternal; he has always been, and always will be. Yet, if God created the world and all life at a set point in time, what did he do in the perpetual void that existed before he did this?
17.) Satan, allegedly, was a corrupt angel, outcast from Heaven. He betrayed God. But if God is omnipotent, couldn’t he have foreseen the deceit beforehand…?
18.) Angels are helpers of God. If God is all-powerful and indeed everywhere at all times, why does he need any help at all?
19.) Returning to the man-in-God’s image theme, if we are indeed replicas of God, why do we need to eat/sleep? If God as well requires these, he is not self-sufficient. If he does not require these, then we’re not in his complete image. Either way discredits the Creationist theory of Christianity.
20.) Throughout history, there have been countless hundreds of religions. Each one for a time was believed by a number of people no less devout than Christians today. If Christians easily disavow the beliefs of other religions, why should others not disavow Christianity? In other words, isn’t it incredibly naïf and narrow-minded of them to believe in a religion and not at least doubt it?
21.) If God exists, why does he allow his Church to be so corrupt, knowing that in so doing, it is hurting belief in him and his teachings?
22.) If Christianity is the one, true, absolute religion, why do only one in every six people believe in it? In China alone there are more Daoists than there are Christians throughout all the world. Approximately 810 million Indians profess Hindu.
23.) God sent a flood to kill all but one pair of each of every species, Noah and his immediate family. Since God is all-knowing, this means that God willingly and premeditatedly meant to kill nearly all humanity from the very beginning. Isn’t killing all by 10 people out of humanity genocide, and far worse than on the scale of Stalin or Hitler? Murder is a sin; thus God sins, thus God is a hypocrite.
24.) In the Old Testament, God kept in touch with humanity for some time; to guide and council us. This is chronicled in the first few books of the Bible. There could be no doubt he existed when he blatantly showed himself and indeed walked alongside us. Why did this God-Man contact stop eventually?
25.) Genesis 2:2 claims that God created the world in seven days, and that on the seventh day, God, exhausted, had to rest…thus we have Sunday; the Lord’s day of rest. If God is all-powerful, why would he need to rest at all, ever…?
26.) Atheists say “Where did God come from?” Christians will counter with “He’s always been and always will be.” That logic being valid, cannot one just as easily claim that matter (and the universe) always have been and always will be…? Isn’t it easier to believe that atoms have always existed, than an all-powerful yet conveniently reclusive deity?
27.) Christian try to prove heaven exists that heaven exist because “when you die, where else does your soul go?” To counter this, it goes exactly back from whence it came. What is death, they ask? I can easily answer this. Do you remember what was happening five thousands years before your were born? Obviously not…because you were not yet born. You did not exist. The very exact same state of non-existence awaits us all, just as much as we have all come from it. Our mind disintegrates, as it is inextricably incorporated with the flesh.
28.) The Bible was written by prophets of Jesus and God. Why wouldn’t he just write it himself, knowing that men are easily confused and distorted, and thusly that what they say could easily be mistranslated and laughed at?
29.) If God created man, then he surely also intended for us to act and behave as we do… he knows our minds, after all. That being said, did he not intend for us to be skeptical of him, granted our gifted ability to advance and learn over time? Moreover, if he didn’t intend for man to act violent and kill his fellow man, why did he form our minds with such flawed instincts and violent intentions? We are as he created us—filled with emotion, hate, fear and the inevitable fate of eternal oblivion that awaits us in death.


The discrepancies in the Bible alone are countless. To name them all would be a monumental task; but suffice to say that not much of it is credible. The Bible talks of talking animals, and great disasters…a vengeful god who loves us all yet murders whole cities who do not believe in him. Seems more petty and jealous than loving. Furthermore, if such a deity did exist, why doesn’t he do any of this anymore; why would he reign destruction of the disobedient peoples of the past, but not today? Why didn’t God stop Hitler, or Stalin? Why do people suffer? The countless questions against God may forever go unanswered. Christians and theologians scramble to make up excuses on behalf of their absent role model, yet they are at best imaginative solutions. More often than not, theologians can sum up the absence and discrepancies of their god by simply saying: “He works in mysterious ways. We are too simple and insignificant to understand him.”


---Darunia

Quote:We don't need a missionary to tell us we're believing the 'wrong' thing. It reinforces my opinion that atheism is a religion all to itself.

Though, the difference between you and ABF is that ABF states why he doesn't believe, but you seem to hold a nasty grudge against anyone who does.

That was actually the third time I wrote that post... it got deleted twice and the result was much shorter than I had planned, obviously. :)

And I also don't hate you for believing, as I said. You can't really help it, and I outlined why I think that is (psychologically)... not believing is a more daring step, one most people wouldn't and don't want to take. Losing that comfort blanket can be rough... that's not the whole of it of course, but it's certainly a big part.

Quote:ABF, that's certainly not the way I view that situation. Why would it matter if there is a machine involved? The body isn't actually a part of one's soul, but a tool, albeit a squishy one. I certainly would view using a gun to kill someone with the same evil as using one's own fists to do the job.

In your examples, they appear exactly the same and produce a different conflict, the one you should have went with. The "lesser of two evils" paradox. Now then, I don't believe such a situation will ever occur. No one who is so evil as to engineer such a conundrum will ever be capable of actually putting it all together and doing it. Your examples are also solvable without killing anyone. First off, a fat man wouldn't be enough to slow down that trolley. Assuming it would, why do that? There's always another way. I have taken a very Vash attitude towards things like that. There's always a way to save everybody if you just think hard enough. For example, why not YELL at the 5 people to MOVE THEIR ARSES. Easy solution there.

In the first example, throw the switch midway but not all the way. This will jam the tracks and cause the trolley to derail, but everyone will survive.

That was copied straight from an article I read in a magazine that day... it was a research test. The subjects were in a machine that scanned their brains while they asked them questions... the result (the article said) showed that with the 'push' one people didn't think as logically about it as the instinctual response came up but with the switch they were able to do that more so. I can understand that...

As for questioning the question, well, it's not designed that way. Just assume that that's the only way out. :D

Oh, here's something that got lost in the third rewrite... another thing.

The peer pressure one. This is a classic question outlining this.

A B C D
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Okay, which two lines are the most similar?

So, there is a group of people and the question is asked to them one at a time. Each of the first five people says "C and D". You are last. What do you say?

A LOT of the time people say "C and D", despite their better judgement. It's been proven. They either think that the others know something they don't or that they should go along to not look different...

Now, religion isn't quite like this. It's hardly that obvious. And for primitive man it wasn't obvious at all. But now? We know better! We can see that those lines aren't quite the same and the old things (physical representations of the power of various deities) is wrong. Science has explained many "religious" things and continues to add more and will have more in the future. As I (think I) said, in the future we will answer more. It might take a long time but eventually we should answer most of the big questions, like ASM's "how did the universe form/how did the big bang work/since we didn't know didn't god do it"... and prove that third part wrong. But as I also said religion will take it hard and argue very hard against it but in the long run they'll have to admit the obvious. Over time belief builds up and after so long people don't want to believe that those lines aren't the way they thought they were... so as I said that won't destroy religion, it'll just retreat it to some nebulous position that God created the universe and guided it or something... something that science can't disprove because there would be no hard-science things left for "god" to have done. THAT aspect of God can't be proven nonexistent ever.

However, from my view it's not a sane position. It to me sounds exactly like this question you might have heard...

Okay, why wasn't the universe created one minuite ago? I KNOW it was! Faith says that it was created one minuite ago exactly as it is.

Now, that cannot be disproven, just like that final form of God can't be. But does that make it LOGICAL? No! But as I said I don't think God will go anywhere because somehow it's been burned into us, over the millenia, and it'd take something like killing anyone who's ever heard of God and completely starting over and only teaching people science to get people to stop such beliefs...


As for Darunia... you did mention a few good points. Previous religions. From my perspective, I see absolutely no reason that "God" is true and "Zeus" or "Odin" aren't... and objectively, I'd say, there is none... just blind religious faith. And blind faith is NOT a good thing. Ever. Your point about Christian sects (and other modern religions) is the same. How can two Christian sects which disagree both be right? It's all in the eye of the beholder. I see no logical reason why any one religion is more right than any other... well unless said religion involves human sacrifice, or something. :)

Though, Darunia, I wouldn't call that blind faith stupidity... it's might seem objectively stupid but to them it is not. So it might be stupid in a way but they don't know it, and will never accept it, which makes the point kind of moot... and anyway it's taught and learned from everyone around you and people are social creatures, as I showed above, so I can hardly blame people for believing what they are told. It's not stupid to do that. It's a survival trait actually... so no it isn't really stupid. It's just not really thinking it all the way through and refusing to let yourself do that.

Quote:10.) In Genesis, God created man first, and later woman. Whereas Man was created instantaneously by God, Woman had to be taken from one of Adam’s ribs…this is simply ridiculous; wouldn’t it have been easier to have just spontaneously created a Woman too? Furthermore, why a rib?
11.) God made man in all his form. Surely, this including reproductive genitalia. Then, as an afterthought, God later created woman from one of Adam’s ribs…why didn’t he create man and woman together? If not to reproduce with a woman, what were the penis and testicles for originally…? Using logic, if not to reproduce with, they could only realistically be used for masturbating to obtain self-sexual gratification. Does this then not mean that masturbation is acceptable, despite the Catholic Church being against it?
12.) If God made man in his image, and Eve could not resist temptation, doesn’t this

The second creation story in Genesis has man and woman created at the same time, you know, not Eve from Adam's rib... of course having two creation stories is one of those numerous problems with the Bible, but it's a point that should be said. :)

Quote:9.) A prominent, recurring theme of Christianity is forgiveness. If that is true, why does God not forgive Adam and Eve for Eve’s having eaten the forbidden fruit of the Garden of Eden? Furthermore, why does he make all of humanity suffer eternally for it…? Furthermore still, if the fruit was forbidden and never to be touched, what purpose did it serve, and why did he put it there, within reach and sight of the humans who, imperfect as we are could be easily tempted? Wasn’t this a trap waiting to happen?

The Old Testament god isn't especially forgiving... How about Sodom and Gomorrah? The Great Flood? Moses killing the idol-worshippers? Etc etc etc...

Quote:28.) The Bible was written by prophets of Jesus and God. Why wouldn’t he just write it himself, knowing that men are easily confused and distorted, and thusly that what they say could easily be mistranslated and laughed at?

God guided the prophets' hands and wrote it by proxy, many believe... that means that it's infallible of course and that isn't true because even within the bible there are contradictions and as you say we've proven parts wrong and our morals are quite different now, but they say it anyway.

Quote:21.) If God exists, why does he allow his Church to be so corrupt, knowing that in so doing, it is hurting belief in him and his teachings?

God is too busy to deal with the affairs of men... he did early in the Old Testament but I guess he got tired of us or something... :D

Quote:4.) The human body is definitely flawed; and yet if Man is created in God’s image, does this not also mean that the perfect God is also flawed?

'In his image' doesn't mean that we are in every way like God.