I'll say there is ONE advantage to working on such an old system. They know the hardware. They don't have to learn new hardware. That's something I guess. Eventually though, ya gotta move on. Oh sure it would be fun to see exactly how far one could go (perhaps a total GENIUS might get Doom 3 working perfectly on the old Atari :D), but it's good to go onward.
Now ABF, while systems released around the same time tend to be better at some things yet worse at others, when you go 1 or 2 GENERATIONS ahead of that system, that system can do absolutely everything the previous one could, and truly IS in every concievable way the better system. This is why emulation can work so well for old NES games on the GCN. The GCN can easily do absolutely every single last thing the NES could ever EVER ever EVER EVER EVER ever EVER EVER EVER EvEr EVEr eVER EVER eVeR Ever ever do, and that's a fact (oh, except have a decent select button :D).
DJ: True... if only companies would release more emulated games for the current systems. :S Plus, as you said, the controller is also an issue. The D-pad on GCN is too damned small, thus the controller itself isn't the best to play with NES games.
You answered your own question, DJ. The most basic thing seperating consoles is the controller. :)
For example, the Neo-Geo comes with a arcade stick as the normal controller (though there was a dpad one too)... sure you might be able to get one but it's not standard equipment and most people don't have them so they have a very, very different experience... or as SJ says how about D-Pad size? Or how about button locations? Each system is different and games are often built for the controller, and the controller shapes how you interact with the game...
For instance I haven't played OoT on the NGC but I don't know if I'd want to. The N64 controller is just so much better for the game (thinking of WW) that I'm sure the game is better on the N64.
Oh, and for Neo-Geo you have one more issue in your hypothesis. Loading. See as I said, Neo-Geo carts get up to 750 megabit. That's big. Even compressed, on a DVD you WILL have loading times. Oh, the Neo-Geo games on PS2 are nearly perfect and most people wouldn't care at all but the most detail-oriented fans can find SOMETHING different... for 99% of the population it's identical I'm sure but I am also sure that there would be small loading times. The PS1 versions of the games of course had awful loading times... but that is supporting your point --- one generation better, PS1, cannot do Neo-Geo games any justice because of loading. But the PS2 can get very close. I think the main differences are some things about sprites (and how the PS2 handles them) and the fact that for KOF2000/2001 they improved the backgrounds so they are not the same...
Quote:You answered your own question, DJ.
I wasn't asking anything!
Ah yes, but 750 megabits is actually just 93.75 megaBYTES, which is what everything that isn't a cartridge uses. Considering I have a gig of RAM in my machine, load times would not exist.
Oh by the way, the control system for OOT is NOT like WW. In WW the camera has it's own control system on the C stick so they couldn't do this but, in OOT, they put all the c-button features on the c stick. Since the GCN is so much more comfortable, I actually like it MORE than the original. However, even on the very nicely done c-stick setup, you do have to get used to it, and it's a little tough to fire arrows rapidly by flicking the c-stick.
Load times are indeed the only issue due to going from format to format. Once RAM gets to a certain point though, and it's pretty darn close as it is, that won't be an issue either and all the old cart games will be entirely runnable in RAM.
Yes, I pointed out the controller thing didn't I? I did that on purpose because I didn't consider it to count. They make custom controls for arcade machines anyway so it just wasn't relevant.
Quote:I wasn't asking anything!
The unspoken question 'what advantages does working on old hardware have'. :) But I'm sure you knew that.
Quote:Ah yes, but 750 megabits is actually just 93.75 megaBYTES, which is what everything that isn't a cartridge uses. Considering I have a gig of RAM in my machine, load times would not exist.
Ah but we're talking consoles not PCs... consoles don't have 100 megs of RAM yet. And even if they did you'd need to consider that there's overhead for the game on top of that. When consoles have 128 megs of ram they might be able to do load-free large Neo games.
Quote:Yes, I pointed out the controller thing didn't I? I did that on purpose because I didn't consider it to count. They make custom controls for arcade machines anyway so it just wasn't relevant.
... huh? It's not relevant that the game was designed for something other than you are playing it on? Are you nuts? That's a major and very important point! ... unless I'm misunderstanding you?
Quote:Oh by the way, the control system for OOT is NOT like WW. In WW the camera has it's own control system on the C stick so they couldn't do this but, in OOT, they put all the c-button features on the c stick. Since the GCN is so much more comfortable, I actually like it MORE than the original. However, even on the very nicely done c-stick setup, you do have to get used to it, and it's a little tough to fire arrows rapidly by flicking the c-stick.
Oh I know the WW control system is different, but it's based on OoT's controls and I can see how OoT would be laid out on the NGC controller... and I'll keep my N64 version thank you very much.
Yeah you misunderstood me. Then again, I wasn't exactly certain of my point myself, so whatever. They make plenty of custom controllers for consoles so you can find what you want anyway.
I suppose we differ on our opinions on the controllers. Personally, I much prefer the analog stick on the GCN controller, as well as the shoulder triggers. They work out much nicer for me in OOT. Also, the C stick configuration for the C buttons also works out remarkably well.
In any case, the one thing you're missing out on the most is Master Quest. You'd enjoy that I know. One note, playing Zelda 2 on my Zelda collection disk, I have found that the control stick actually works GREAT in that game. In some ways, the stick controls that game better, which is odd considering that in most platform games I'd totally use a d-pad. Part of it could be the bad placement of the d-pad on the GCN controller, but another part is just the physics of Zelda 2, how movement works. Zelda 1 on the other hand was never meant for control sticks.
How did I misunderstand you? I mean you're talking about how the NGC can do EVERYTHING the NES could and then say 'wait a minuite it can't in several ways'... thus proving your supposition wrong. :)
The C-Stick for items? Seems like it'd be a huge, huge hassle... and Z is far better than L or R... and darnit I LIKE the N64 control stick, dissolving or not! :D
And I wish I had Master Quest, but there's no way for me to get it...
Um, it CAN except we're talking emulation. Direct port and they could easily set it up so the load times are completely unnoticable on today's systems.
The controller thing is the only actual issue, but I was pointing that out for fun because we were only talking about the system itself, the thinking part.
The GC controller is a hundred times better than the N64 controller. Sure the Z button is better-placed on the N64 controller, but the GC analog stick is
so much better, and the controller is a lot more comfortable.
Quote:Oh, you misunderstood me. I meant that I think Sammy is developing the game.
What makes you think that?
Quote:Every system has its own charms and ideosyncracies that make it different and not just 'newer = better in every way'...
Oh and I'm just a mild 'liking older games' person. I don't even have any old consoles! There are lots of serious classic-games gamers... for some relevant to this look no further than http://www.neo-geo.com <http://www.neo-geo.com> . A whole website (huge membership too) devoted to "strange" people who not only play old games but buy $300 Neo-Geo games regularly!
"Charms and ideosyncracies" like low resolutions and poor processing power? Yeah, that sure is charming.
Quote:Funny, I think similar things about you... you are infuriatingly annoying... you NEVER listen. You never listen! I know I say it a lot but it's so, SO true. You do not listen. Oh you read, I guess, but you don't really interpret... at times it's almost more than I can take. I HATE explaining things thirty times and having you STILL THINKING THE SAME (wrong) THING AT THE END! Even when I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are wrong, and even when I have proof...
I'd love to just be able to discuss things, but then you come along and make the atmosphere extremely hostile and start slinging insults and once you latch on to a position nothing will ever change it no matter what... arguements where you are not involved can be much, much more pleasant to be in. Even if they would be a lot shorter.
Now you're just repeating to me what I've been saying about you for
years now. You can't even come up with your own reasons for disliking me! You're the most annoying person in the entire universe ABF, and you do not deserve any sympathy from me.
Quote:I agree with ABF on this one. While I don't find it really sad that these systems are outdated, I still sometimes wonder what it would be like if people still developed for it. Nostalgia for a particular console plays a humongous part in that, I'd say.
It's a feeling you get when you play an addictive NES game for the first time (one that you never knew about before) and adore it. You realize that since no one is developing for the system any longer, there's a limit on the number of other NES games you could discover (when I say that, I mean discover for yourself), and that thought is a little depressing. I realize how illogical that sounds, since the new systems can all show prettier graphics, but for pure nostalgia and that alone, it isn't the same.
I'm not getting sucked into this silly argument, though. I don't expect you to understand, OB1, so go ahead and insult me until your fingertips turn black and blue, if it really makes you feel better. I don't care.
Sure it would be
neat to see Nintendo make another new NES just for nostalgia's sake, but that would be taking resources away from developing games for their current consoles and Nintendo needs all of the help they can get to compete with Sony and MS.
Quote:Now you're just repeating to me what I've been saying about you for years now. You can't even come up with your own reasons for disliking me! You're the most annoying person in the entire universe ABF, and you do not deserve any sympathy from me.
That wasn't repeating you. That was my honest opinion.
Quote:What makes you think that?
Rumors from neo-geo.com mostly.
Quote:"Charms and ideosyncracies" like low resolutions and poor processing power? Yeah, that sure is charming.
As I said you don't get it and that is sad. :(
And DJ I don't see how you can just ignore the controller like that. As I said the controller is the most obvious and important part of each console's uniqueness!
And consoles... I don't think they have the RAM for whole carts yet, not with the rest of the stuff you'd need to get it to run too (and remember that the console version will be larger because they changed the game with things like upgraded backgrounds a Neo couldn't do)
Quote:That wasn't repeating you. That was my honest opinion.
Which is what I said about
you. You just copied me to be even
more annoying.
Quote:As I said you don't get it and that is sad.
And DJ I don't see how you can just ignore the controller like that. As I said the controller is the most obvious and important part of each console's uniqueness!
And consoles... I don't think they have the RAM for whole carts yet, not with the rest of the stuff you'd need to get it to run too (and remember that the console version will be larger because they changed the game with things like upgraded backgrounds a Neo couldn't do)
There are no advantages to using older hardware. Not one single one. If the developers wanted to they could make games with those same specs. But they don't because that would be retarded. And yes it's true like DJ said that they would be more familiar with old hardware, but they'd be so much more limited that it would be completely pointless.
Quote:Which is what I said about you. You just copied me to be even more annoying.
That is just not true! Disbelieve me if you want but any similarities are not because of me copying you. They are because you annoy me in ways that evidently are similar to the way I annoy you! ... didn't think of that, did you? It's the truth. I can't say anything more than that.
Quote:There are no advantages to using older hardware. Not one single one. If the developers wanted to they could make games with those same specs. But they don't because that would be retarded. And yes it's true like DJ said that they would be more familiar with old hardware, but they'd be so much more limited that it would be completely pointless.
And you're calling ME stupid.
Quote:That is just not true! Disbelieve me if you want but any similarities are not because of me copying you. They are because you annoy me in ways that evidently are similar to the way I annoy you! ... didn't think of that, did you? It's the truth. I can't say anything more than that.
Suuuuure.
Quote:And you're calling ME stupid.
Why, why
yes I am!
Great retort, btw. You really proved me wrong there with that great argument.
You're too thick headed to be worth the time... I mean, now you're accusing me of lying! Not nice.
Hey this is just like that one show that I've never seen but have been told is EXACTLY like this!
What the hell is ABF talking about? It's like he's responding to his imaginary retarded friend or something.
The main problem for this thread is that you can't understand why anyone would ever still like older hardware... sad. Really.
As for why I said you are accusing me of lying... umm... I said 'my explanation of why you are annoying was not copying you'. Then you say that it was. I say it was not. I should know, I wrote it. So saying otherwise is OBVIOUSLY accusing me of lying! How much clearer does it have to get? It's not nice and it's not accurate. I know you like to insult, but it's just not right...
I'm all for playing old games, but that doesn't mean I don't want games to move forward too.
Hey I feel a bit nostalgic when I crack out my old TRS80, but I sure as hell wouldn't want anyone to start making games for it instead of newer PCs.
It doesn't mean I don't want games to move forward either of course...
And there are people who make games for old systems. Not officially of course, but they do... are they all stupid?
No, because they are just garage developers. If bigger companies like Nintendo or Konami were to go back and make games for older systems, they would definitely be stupid.
