A Black Falcon Wrote:No, supporting one group over another isn't racism when that group is clearly disadvantaged and can't be brought to a level equal with the main group unless you give it some advantages. And that's what affirmative action does.
Disadvantages? What disadvantages? Not physical or mental. You make it sound as though blacks are an inferior subspecies that is incapable of existing on the same level as whites, and that isn't true. The disadvantages of black people are in their condition, which is caused mostly by failed social programs. To erase inequality you have to level the playing field at a different level. You can't put two different people in the same job, when one has a college education and one is a high-school dropout. It won't work that way. To make blacks and whites truly equal, first the whole concept of race has to be eliminated (liberals of course don't want that), the second is to start the equalization process from the very beginning: Better schools (which liberals, fighting school vouchers, also do not want). You can't give them twenty years of failure and THEN start the process. It puts everyone at a disadvantage: The 'beneficiaries' who are given things they aren't prepared to handle for the sake of equality, and the others who are qualified but denied from the racial quota.
Fortunately, most black families see that vouchers are the only way out of the mess. Unfortunately, liberal democrats know that the black vote is a big one, and if they allow black people to succeed and become truly equal in society, they will have no need for the democrats and will lose that vote. So the left spreads lies of hatred and racism to scare blacks into voting democrat. They spread lies about how we want to re-enslave them, how we are nazis and the voucher program will only benefit rich white people (an absurd claim if ever one was made). Fortunately, it seems like blacks are starting to ignore it in a very important way.
Quote:And if you think that racism against blacks is something that only happened in the past you are insane...
Some people are still racist. That will never change unfortunately. But once upon a time in America, racism against blacks was officially sanctioned and encouraged. It was acceptable and right at one time. It was official government policy. That is nowhere near the case anymore for black people. Most people aren't racist, because as a society we have matured. Most people, at the very least, are tolerant, if distant to other races and creeds. However, there is official government policy now practicing the very same thing in reverse. There is nothing different in the practice of denying jobs to whites in favor of blacks than there was early on in Nazi Germany when Jews were denied jobs in favor of Aryan Germans. The Germans used the exact same reason you do: "We were taken advantage of by the Jews". Official racism against blacks is very wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Germans were wrong, and so are you.
You are so deluded and crazy that I really don't think even trying to say anything would make any sense.
I will a little but won't waste too much time on it.
Quote:Disadvantages? What disadvantages? Not physical or mental. You make it sound as though blacks are an inferior subspecies that is incapable of existing on the same level as whites, and that isn't true. The disadvantages of black people are in their condition, which is caused mostly by failed social programs. To erase inequality you have to level the playing field at a different level. You can't put two different people in the same job, when one has a college education and one is a high-school dropout. It won't work that way. To make blacks and whites truly equal, first the whole concept of race has to be eliminated (liberals of course don't want that), the second is to start the equalization process from the very beginning: Better schools (which liberals, fighting school vouchers, also do not want). You can't give them twenty years of failure and THEN start the process. It puts everyone at a disadvantage: The 'beneficiaries' who are given things they aren't prepared to handle for the sake of equality, and the others who are qualified but denied from the racial quota.
Fortunately, most black families see that vouchers are the only way out of the mess. Unfortunately, liberal democrats know that the black vote is a big one, and if they allow black people to succeed and become truly equal in society, they will have no need for the democrats and will lose that vote. So the left spreads lies of hatred and racism to scare blacks into voting democrat. They spread lies about how we want to re-enslave them, how we are nazis and the voucher program will only benefit rich white people (an absurd claim if ever one was made). Fortunately, it seems like blacks are starting to ignore it in a very important way.
You just do not want to understand the concept that sometimes people in disadvantaged situations need additional laws so that they can be equal. It isn't racism any more than the laws that make it illegal to fire people over their ethnicity (or many other things) is... it is trying to make everyone equal. The only way to make everyone equal is to help the people on the bottom. You do that with laws that help people on the bottom get on to a more level playing field with the people who have more. In this country, blacks as a group are far poorer than whites. That is just a fact -- a large percentage of the black community is poor and has been for a long time. And when you're poor for that long you lose hope of improvement... that's what's happened here. Some blacks can help themselves, but not most. Nowhere near. So we need to help them because leaving them in opressed in poverty like conservatives want to do is a cruel thing. Affirmative action is a great way to do that. It helps people who would otherwise have no chance of ever going to college to get there... a great way to help people who can't do it for themselves. It makes things somewhat more fair. Oh, it's still tilted towards whites, but affirmative action makes it a bit fairer.
And if you say that it gives them advantages I'll just repeat the fact that they are poorer and cannot afford all the aids that people with more money can. Yes, black society does seem to not want to get out of it's situation when you look at rappers and stuff... but then you see that those guys get rich and get out themselves...
And I've said all I can about vouchers. It'll help a couple of kids in poor schools and doom the rest in those schools to an even worse education, which is a very bad deal for society as a whole.
Quote:Some people are still racist. That will never change unfortunately. But once upon a time in America, racism against blacks was officially sanctioned and encouraged. It was acceptable and right at one time. It was official government policy. That is nowhere near the case anymore for black people. Most people aren't racist, because as a society we have matured. Most people, at the very least, are tolerant, if distant to other races and creeds. However, there is official government policy now practicing the very same thing in reverse. There is nothing different in the practice of denying jobs to whites in favor of blacks than there was early on in Nazi Germany when Jews were denied jobs in favor of Aryan Germans. The Germans used the exact same reason you do: "We were taken advantage of by the Jews". Official racism against blacks is very wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Germans were wrong, and so are you
Oh, people say that they aren't racist, that is true, but in their hearts? Far more people than you admit are. And yes, it was government policy to opress. The result was that they were opressed and still haven't recovered. We need to improve all of them, not just the smartest or most athletic ones like vouchers would! We need to fundamentally change how we deal with 'failing schools' in a way that would give them not just more chances but would have some kind of program for success... removing money is not the way to go. You need to do something in the school to improve things. We can't just leave kids in failing schools and say by effect 'we don't care about you, because you aren't good enough to get into private schools you are stuck in poverty for life'... that is not right! It is not right to say that the rich or the lucky ones who can get rich should be able to exploit that... but that's fundamental right-wing policy...
And as for giving blacks a chance, again, that's just trying to make things fair. There is no other way to do it, really... without those laws almost all of those jobs would go to whites and the blacks would be where people like you think they belong -- stuck forever in ghettos...
A Black Falcon Wrote:You just do not want to understand the concept that sometimes people in disadvantaged situations need additional laws so that they can be equal. It isn't racism any more than the laws that make it illegal to fire people over their ethnicity (or many other things) is... it is trying to make everyone equal. The only way to make everyone equal is to help the people on the bottom. You do that with laws that help people on the bottom get on to a more level playing field with the people who have more. In this country, blacks as a group are far poorer than whites. That is just a fact -- a large percentage of the black community is poor and has been for a long time. And when you're poor for that long you lose hope of improvement... that's what's happened here. Some blacks can help themselves, but not most. Nowhere near. So we need to help them because leaving them in opressed in poverty like conservatives want to do is a cruel thing. Affirmative action is a great way to do that. It helps people who would otherwise have no chance of ever going to college to get there... a great way to help people who can't do it for themselves. It makes things somewhat more fair. Oh, it's still tilted towards whites, but affirmative action makes it a bit fairer.
I agree with all of that, except that by that point in life it's too late. If we are to do affirmative action, it needs to be done in schools. Not in the workplace. It needs to be done by doing SOMETHING radically different with the school system. The public system is a tremendous failure. And your only solution is to
throw more money at it and hope the problem goes away.
I as a conservative do not want anyone in poverty. I think everyone should work as hard as they can to avoid poverty. I also think if you're going to get help to avoid poverty it needs to start from the very beginning, and to do that we must abandon the ruinous education policies that, thanks to liberals, have given us the worst AND the most expensive public school network in the history of the nation. And yet you want MORE MONEY. But it obviously isn't doing anything.
Quote:And if you say that it gives them advantages I'll just repeat the fact that they are poorer and cannot afford all the aids that people with more money can. Yes, black society does seem to not want to get out of it's situation when you look at rappers and stuff... but then you see that those guys get rich and get out themselves...
And why does black society not want to get out of its situation? You people and your handout policy. For decades you have given these people money and have completely destroyed their work ethic and motivation. It is the left that have created this mess.
Quote:And I've said all I can about vouchers. It'll help a couple of kids in poor schools and doom the rest in those schools to an even worse education, which is a very bad deal for society as a whole.
Worse? How can they get any worse? To quote Chevy Chase, "we're at the threshold of Hell" education-wise. And while you bemoan vouchers, you don't offer one single good alternative. It's the age-old liberal response: "throw more money at it and hope it goes away".
Quote:Oh, people say that they aren't racist, that is true, but in their hearts? Far more people than you admit are. And yes, it was government policy to opress. The result was that they were opressed and still haven't recovered. We need to improve all of them, not just the smartest or most athletic ones like vouchers would! We need to fundamentally change how we deal with 'failing schools' in a way that would give them not just more chances but would have some kind of program for success... removing money is not the way to go. You need to do something in the school to improve things. We can't just leave kids in failing schools and say by effect 'we don't care about you, because you aren't good enough to get into private schools you are stuck in poverty for life'... that is not right! It is not right to say that the rich or the lucky ones who can get rich should be able to exploit that... but that's fundamental right-wing policy...
Well, all the left has done is make things worse. They create racial rifts, promote racism and class warfare, all the while doing everything they can to keep blacks as an endandered species. What if we funded public schools as well as they could be? It wouldn't be enough, because you also oppose standardization. If public schools were PERFECTLY funded, liberals would change from "rich vs. poor" to "Intelligent vs. 'underpriveledged'". You would complain, much as you do now, that unintelligent children do not have an equal chance to succeed with standards and it's discriminatory. Obviously, since you couldn't use that terminology, you would replace "unintelligent" with "black", because liberals are fundamentally racist, but too dishonest to be forthright about it.
Quote:And as for giving blacks a chance, again, that's just trying to make things fair. There is no other way to do it, really... without those laws almost all of those jobs would go to whites and the blacks would be where people like you think they belong -- stuck forever in ghettos...
If people like me think blacks belong in ghettos, why is it that people like you do the most to ensure they stay there?
It's so sad that you actually believe such things... or it would be if it wasn't so scary.
Quote:I agree with all of that, except that by that point in life it's too late. If we are to do affirmative action, it needs to be done in schools. Not in the workplace. It needs to be done by doing SOMETHING radically different with the school system. The public system is a tremendous failure. And your only solution is to throw more money at it and hope the problem goes away.
Money alone doesn't solve problems, no. However, given that funding cuts in education is one of the first things any decent conservative political group does when it can, and that public education is chronically underfunded, more funding will go a long way to help... more funding and raising the pay of teachers. That is critical. Teachers need to be paid well enough so that good people will actually want to teach -- right now that just is not true in the majority. But there are other things too... standards? Yes, if they are targeted well and are balanced and respond to local conditions and don't discriminate against some schools because they have more minority groups or special ed students... oh yeah, and are aimed to actually fix public education and not just destroy it like Bush's are trying to do.
Quote:And why does black society not want to get out of its situation? You people and your handout policy. For decades you have given these people money and have completely destroyed their work ethic and motivation. It is the left that have created this mess.
The problem dates from far, far before recent attempts at reconciling with centuries of unfairness.
Quote:Worse? How can they get any worse? To quote Chevy Chase, "we're at the threshold of Hell" education-wise. And while you bemoan vouchers, you don't offer one single good alternative. It's the age-old liberal response: "throw more money at it and hope it goes away".
Another classic right-wing tactic -- act like schools are so broken that they cannot be fixed. Like so many things right wingers say, it's just lies.
Quote:Well, all the left has done is make things worse. They create racial rifts, promote racism and class warfare, all the while doing everything they can to keep blacks as an endandered species. What if we funded public schools as well as they could be? It wouldn't be enough, because you also oppose standardization. If public schools were PERFECTLY funded, liberals would change from "rich vs. poor" to "Intelligent vs. 'underpriveledged'". You would complain, much as you do now, that unintelligent children do not have an equal chance to succeed with standards and it's discriminatory. Obviously, since you couldn't use that terminology, you would replace "unintelligent" with "black", because liberals are fundamentally racist, but too dishonest to be forthright about it.
Underpriviliged people aren't necessarially dumb... and there is a big, big difference between being unintelligent because your school failed you and you can't see a reason to care and actually being dumb. You seem to see those as the same, but they are't at all.. if public schools were perfectly funded we could seriously work on fixing the reasons that first group doesn't succeed and it would be a great thing.
Quote:If people like me think blacks belong in ghettos, why is it that people like you do the most to ensure they stay there?
It's pretty depressing that you actually believe that.
Darunia Wrote:A Canadian who is so proud of his country, and he can't even spell his leader's name. Chreitien; Chreitein?
Actually, it's Chrétien.
But you might as well spell is 'Martin' from now on. (hopefully that'll change)
Fittisize Wrote:Actually, it's Chrétien.
But you might as well spell is 'Martin' from now on. (hopefully that'll change)
Ive seen alot of Magazines spell it the way I did so I am not the only fish.
Uh huh, well you musta read it wrong or else they spelt it wrong.
Fittisize Wrote:Uh huh, well you musta read it wrong or else they spelt it wrong.
You mean
spelled ? :kiss:
Nope, I meant spelt. Either/or.
Fittisize Wrote:Nope, I meant spelt. Either/or.
But
spelt is not a word...
spell
v. spelled, or spelt (splt) spell·ing, spells
v. tr.
To name or write in order the letters constituting (a word or part of a word).
To constitute the letters of (a word): These letters spell animal.
To add up to; signify: Their unwise investment could spell financial ruin.
I love how everyone is a perfectionist or at least tries to be one on this bored.
-iLluSiON- Wrote:I love how everyone is a perfectionist or at least tries to be one on this bored.
My mistake Fitty. You were right and I was wrong! Sorry
iLluSiON
![[Image: stfucoffe.jpg]](http://www.nicksildesigns.com/forumpics/stfucoffe.jpg)
-iLluSiON- Wrote:I love how everyone is a perfectionist or at least tries to be one on this bored.
You forgot the comma between 'perfectionist' and 'or'.
:)
You also used the wrong "board."
I think it was supposed to be some sort of pun.
Fittisize Wrote:I think it was supposed to be some sort of pun.
Moreso than you noticed, from the look of it.
Moiraine: Grow some pubes before you know what's good for you. :finger:
*Darunia-Weltall-Moiraine Alliance declares war on ILLUSION*
-iLluSiON- Wrote:Moiraine: Grow some pubes before you know what's good for you. :finger:
![[Image: looknewbie.jpg]](http://www.nicksildesigns.com/forumpics/looknewbie.jpg)
Moiraine Wrote:
Atleast I am not the butt end of this.
*Darunia fields 350,000 troops, (43,000 cavalry), 1,100 pieces of artillery. Also summons Odolwa to his aid*
*The sky turns black, and Odolwa descends from the clouds. From nowhere, there is catchy, rythmic drum fanfare. Odolwa, clad in his colorful mezo-american paints, begins to dance around in circles; cutting off the ILLUSION plan for retreat*
*Odolwa joins the Goron-Weltall-Moiraine alliance*
Lay off the whole war thing, it's getting to a point where you are making yourself look like a homosexual.
Let him do what he wants..
Only get worried if you see him in his car in traffic sayin he declares war on the cars in front of him.
*Also declare war on Illusion*
Why am I not surprised that you didn't respond...
Sorry, but I can only take so much of arguing the same points repeatedly before I lose interest.
What we were arguing about here? I just wanted to get in on the action! In real life, though, ILLUSION really is this conceited. Makes it hard to get along with him sometimes; he has a superiority complex.
:mariowin: :luigiwin:
Fittisize Wrote:Lay off the whole war thing, it's getting to a point where you are making yourself look like a homosexual.
Darunia doing war RPs is like Darunia masturbating: only he enjoys it.
People posting here more than a few times a week is like debating anime movies: Only enormously fucking losers do it.
Exceptions apply.
Anime movies are cool though. *succeeds in being labeled a loser* Woohoo! :mariowin:
But Odolwa is WEAK! He like SO dies in 3 hits when I fight him now!
:luigiwin:
:shake:
:mariowin:
It has become a desolate wasteland of the nonsensical. It happens to all threads...eventually.
Weltall, I agree it does get like that, but I didn't think it was so soon this time... :)
And GR, you are right anime movies are cool.
A Black Falcon Wrote:Weltall, I agree it does get like that, but I didn't think it was so soon this time... :)
Well, the more we do it, the less new ground there is to argue.
It's funny because Darunia is the only person who thinks I'm conceited. I'm never nice or sincere to him. All he does is declare war in real life too. This results in him having little to no friends whatsoever.
Quote:Makes it hard to get along with him sometimes; he has a superiority complex.
Only superior to
losers like you.
(edit- a new treaty has been signed between darunia and ILLUSION)
::calls in Middleboro troops::
Filmmaker1237 Wrote:::calls in Middleboro troops::
Yay a newbie
:cow:
my family owns cows
::calls in mounted cow troops::
Filmmaker1237 Wrote:my family owns cows
::calls in mounted cow troops::
ok..
but i thank you for the welcome, my friend :-)
moo
All he does is declare war in real life too.
To you perhaps.
Huh, a newbie... they're a very rare species around here. :)
And Darunia... there's nothing wrong with being a geek. Admit it to yourself and you will be happier. :D
-iLluSiON- Wrote:It's funny because Darunia is the only person who thinks I'm conceited. I'm never nice or sincere to him. All he does is declare war in real life too.
=iLluSiON- Wrote:Only superior to losers like you.
How many girlfriends have you had?
Had sex yet?
What does that have to do with someone bein a loser?
A Black Falcon Wrote:And Darunia... there's nothing wrong with being a geek. Admit it to yourself and you will be happier. :D
*agrees*
In fact, I bet you Darunia is more of a geek than all of you combined.
we're all geeks. now let's party on the moon!
Oh wait, I can't. I'm pleasantly waiting his counter-attack.
Moiraine: Come here and give me a kiss!!! :kiss:
-iLluSiON- Wrote:*agrees*
In fact, I bet you Darunia is more of a geek than all of you combined.
we're all geeks. now let's party on the moon!
Oh wait, I can't. I'm pleasantly waiting his counter-attack.
