How odd.
From Apex, makers of cheap DVD players.
http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6086185.html
Quote:Spot On: The ApeXtreme PC Game Console
Apex, Via, and Digital Interactive Systems' new device promises to bring a console's simplicity to PC games. The question is: Can it?
PC gamers pride themselves on their technical prowess. But every once in a while, when grappling with uncooperative drivers or inexplicable crashes, some may catch themselves giving their PS2 or Xbox an envious glance. Then there's the console jockeys--a proud, callous-thumbed bunch to be sure, but not above a bit of jealousy when it comes to their PC cousins' massive and varied game library.
Anyone who could translate a console's ease-of-use to PC games might make a fortune. Now, it looks like someone may have done just that. Tomorrow at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, DVD manufacturer Apex, chipmaker VIA, and software company Digital Interactive Systems will unveil the ApeXtreme Personal Game Console, a device that can play CDs, DVDs. MP3s and PC games.
Nominated for this year's CES Innovation Award, the ApeXtreme feels like a scaled-back version of the Sony PSX, minus the personal video recording. The system will run at 1.4GHz and use a variety of VIA hardware, including the CN400 processor, the DirectX 9.0c-compatible S3 DeltaChrome graphics chipset, and a Vinyl Audio Dolby 5.1 sound card. It will feature a standard 40GB hard drive, six USB ports, Ethernet, and 56.6kps modem. The console will also support a variety of media inputs and formats, including DVI, SPDIF, RCA, S-video, and HDTV-compatible component video. It will also support DVD+/-R/RW and progressive scan DVD playback.
However, what is unique about the ApeXtreme is its purported ability to let users play PC games like they were console titles. Over an embedded version of Windows XP, the machine will run Digital Interactive Systems' DISCover "Drop and Play" engine, a software system that will allow gamers to slip in a PC game and play it almost immediately. More importantly, the DISCover makers' claim their engine will automatically install patches and "major mods" for the 2,000 games that the ApeXtreme is pre-programmed to recognize. "It will happen automatically, similar to TiVo or Replay TV," said Digital Interactive Systems vice president of operations Loren Kaiser in an interview with GameSpot. "We're trying to take some of the pains out of playing PC games." (For more on the DISCover engine, read GameSpot's interview with Kaiser.)
Although the ApeXtreme won't support any non-game or media programs, its functionality--combined with its $399 price point ($299 for a lower-end model)--sound almost too good to be true. Indeed, many analysts are waiting to see if the console can deliver on its large promises. "Considering the difficulties that are often associated with PC gaming, I'm a bit skeptical that it is as easy to use as it is being described," IDC game analyst Schelley Olhava told GameSpot. Then there's the question of whether PC gamers would even want to move into the living room. "We've found that the console gamer is not the same as the PC gamer," said Olhava. "The behavioral patterns of how you play a PC game versus a console game are quite striking."
However, Olhava admits the appeal of the ApeXtreme is undeniable--if it works. “[It] may find an audience among PC gamers looking for a unique and new type of game experience," she said. "Historically serious gamers have shown a willingness to try new technologies, and if happy with the experience, [they] will gladly spread the word among the mainstream gamer audience." Soon, gamers can find out for themselves--the first ApeXtremes are scheduled to hit stores at the end of March.
Interview of people behind some of the technology behind the system.
http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6086190.html
Quote:Q&A: Loren Kaiser on the DISCover engine
Digital Interactive Systems' vice president explains how the ApeXtreme PC game console's auto-updating, "Drop and Play" software works.
When it is unveiled tomorrow at CES, the ApeXtreme PC game console will have Apex's name on its case. It will be powered by Via hardware inside that case. But what will set it apart is the DISCover "Drop and Play" engine.
Designed by Digital Interactive Systems, the DISCover engine is a software system that aims to let users play PC titles on televisions as though they were console games. According to Loren Kaiser, Digital Interactive Systems' vice president of operations, the engine will also automatically update and install all patches and some mods for the 2,000 PC games which it is programmed to recognize out of the box.
How will it do it? Kaiser took some time out of his schedule to explain to GameSpot how the DISCover engine works and what machines will feature it in the future.
GameSpot: When are the first DISCover-based consoles going to hit stores?
Loren Kaiser: The end of Q1 2004. We're going to launch at CES with the ApexExtreme, which has been chosen as a finalist for the CES Innovation Award. DISCover itself is not making any consoles. DISCover's business model is to help electronics manufacturers tap into the gaming industry. Using our technology they will be able to tap into a library of thousands of existing PC games using the DISCover standard. It's kind of similar to the Dolby or DVD standard. How it works is the games are scripted and the scripts are loaded onto the machine. We're going to script 2,000 games at launch.
GS: Can anyone license the technology?
LK: Not anyone, just select partners. We don't like to use the term "licensing" because we provide a BIOS chip that contains portions of the software. They're also getting our database of scripts, and several programs that work together that we call the DISCover engine. It's really more of a partnership. We don't just hand them a little gold CD. We also script all the games and optimize them to their system.
GS: Is anyone else besides Apex adopting the DISCover engine?
LK: Alienware is going to launch with a media center that incorporates DISCover. The media center will let you do PVR functions and TiVo-type things, like Microsoft's media center--movies, music. Now when you incorporate this, you just drop in the games and they'll play. … They're [also] evaluating a $995 console with a P4 and a gig of RAM. There's going to be some shocks out of the Alienware one--you should see what they're designing.
GS: I was reading on your Web site that the DISCover engine will auto-update and install all the past and new patches for every game played on the console. How will it do that?
LK: OK, what's a game you like to play?
GS: Battlefield 1942.
LK: When you put in the CD, the first thing our engine does is it recognizes the game. We kind of go in front of auto-play, the lower-level calls to the Microsoft kernels. We're going to recognize the disc and determine whether it's a game or a music CD or a DVD. Once we determine it's a game, then we determine what the game is with our a fingerprinting system. Once we determine that it's Battlefield 1942, we're going to look into your system to see if it is installed or not. If it is installed, it's going to come right up and start the game. Now all that happens instantly--you put in Battlefield, the game starts right up. That's what a true console does, a PlayStation 2 or an Xbox.
GS: And if it's not installed?
LK: If it recognizes it's not installed, [the engine] goes into our automatic script to install the game. It knows your system, because we script each machine, so you're not doing anything. For Battlefield, since it's a 2-disc game, the tray will automatically pop open and you'll put in a second disc, and it will continue installing. From that point on, the game's installed and you just put the play disc in and the game starts.
GS: Yeah, but there's been dozens of patches for that game, not to mention all the mods…
LK: We'll handle the patches. As far as the mods, we'll just work with the mods that hit critical mass, the major ones.
GS: How will the DISCover engine know when there's a new patch to upload?
LK: We're working hand-in-hand with GameSpy. They'll be handling the patches with us. We're working with them to build a special DISCover arcade into our system. It will happen automatically, similar to TiVo or Replay TV. Every night at 1am, assuming the system is idle, it will dial in to our servers. When it dials in at night, it's going to get scripts for all the new games we've input into our server. It works the same way with patches. It will recognize that you have Battlefield 1942 on your system and, since the user is not given a choice, it will just patch it for you. We're trying to take some of the pains out of playing PC games.
GS: Will you be able to use a keyboard?
LK: You'll be able to use a keyboard, we're just not going to support productivity software. It's still a computer, if you don't have the DISCover engine going. But in the Apex one it's embedded, you can't even get into any aspects of Windows--all you can do is insert media.
GS: What other functionality will it have?
LK: You can drop in DVDs, music, MP3s. It's an all around media player with games.
GS: So it's fair to say the goal of the DISCover-enabled consoles is to bring console ease-of-use to PC games.
LK: We don't really see it purely as competing with consoles. We're saying there's a lot of great games on the PC, and most people are stuck playing them in their offices or side bedrooms. We're bringing those games into the living room.
Now... this seems really, really stupid. It's just a PC in a box! It plays PC games! Oh joy, it has a built-in autorun system that will launch games like console games when you put the disc in... I can see it now "Now you can play your PC games just like console games! Amazing new system! Thousands of games! Buy today!"... it seems so pointless... for people who can't handle the sometimes hassles of PC games, I guess.
You knock it, but this could be an amatuer game designer's dream come true. For $300 it's a steal, and it even supports Linux out of the box. This is exactly the kind of thing that my friends and I have been waiting for. I just hope people see it for what it is (a really cheap gaming PC that'll be great for platformers especially) and don't skoff at it before they really think about it. It's not supposed to be competition for the X-Box and PS2. It's just a cheap gaming PC that will be perfect for the kinds of games that people like myself are making. It's pretty sexy-looking, too. :D
This Apex one sounds like it is locked into 'put disc in to play' mode though, and can't be made to go to normal Windows... though you probably could modify it to go to Linux if you know what you are doing. The more interesting part is where in that interview they say Alienware will make something compatible with this... Alienware is a big name in the gamer pc market...
But still I'm not so sure about the point of this. It's clearly aimed at console gamers who don't like the hassles of installing and playing PC games. But a lot of PC games are made for computers, not TVs... I'm not so sure about how well they would look or play on TVs. Now high-resolution TVs, fine... but most people, especially the target 'idiot' (sorry but it's true) market for this thing, doesn't have that stuff! And anyway, people who know what they are doing would have video cards with TV out anyway so for them this is irrelevant...
Oh yeah, and it looks like a DVD player. Also, it's another attempt at a 'all-in-one' solution... summoning the 3D0, I think. Just with PC hardware. :)
This is absolutely nothing like the 3D0. The 3D0 was a pure games machine, simple as that. Yes this Apex is just a PC-in-a-box, but so is the X-Box pretty much. The main difference between the two is that the Apex will play all regular PC games and amateur developers won't need an expensive SKU to develop games for it (they'll just need a PC). Saying that this is for "idiots" makes you look like an idiot yourself, ABF. What's wrong with trying to make the process of playing PC games simpler and thus bringing PC games to a larger market? It's especially great for amateur developers that want to try making console-style games but can only develop for the PC (which I am doing with my friend). Sure you can buy a decent controller for the PC, but most people will use their kb&mouse. That makes it difficult to make console-like games because you're forced to include kb&mouse support. If this thing becomes popular enough (or maybe Alienware's version of it) then that would be very good for the industry. We need something equivalent to the independent film industry, and not just for PCs. If anything I just hope that this encourages other PC companies to release similar devices. We really need something like this.
Because I'm biased and think that anyone who actually tries can understand PC games, and if you can't you're either lazy or stupid. :)
And OB1, read that interview. It's the second article posted. They make it clear that the auto-loader thing which in this thing is the only way most people will be using it only works with things they program it to work with.. several thousand games by launch. But it won't just work with everything. They said they won't put any productivity applications into the system, for instance...
Oh, and it has a net connection on all the time and it will download patches and stuff for games and install them for you.
Quote:GS: Can anyone license the technology?
LK: Not anyone, just select partners. We don't like to use the term "licensing" because we provide a BIOS chip that contains portions of the software. They're also getting our database of scripts, and several programs that work together that we call the DISCover engine. It's really more of a partnership. We don't just hand them a little gold CD. We also script all the games and optimize them to their system.
Oh just read it all, it's actually a good read. And not very long.
I believe that guy was referring to the technology of the player, ABF. It should still play most PC games (I say most because it probably won't play DOS games properly).
And I never said that I was going to use the player to make games. That would be impossible. I'm talking about playing console-style games that I make on a PC.
I said read the interview... they talk about how games need to be included in the software to be able to be loaded by the thing... so they have choice over which games work on the thing even though it's a PC.
And as for playing PC games on a TV, I'll repeat the comment about TV-out cards. :)
I read the interview, and it doesn't really say anything about the system choosing which games can be played. That would mean that they'd have to look at every single game coming out and update the software every day. That doesn't make any sense.
And you know very well that using a tv-out to play PC games on a TV isn't even one hundredth as simple as using a console. Again, it's not just about being able to play it on a tv. It's being able to play PC games like you would a console, meaning quick play and having a dedicated controller.
Very first part.
Quote:GameSpot: When are the first DISCover-based consoles going to hit stores?
Loren Kaiser: The end of Q1 2004. We're going to launch at CES with the ApexExtreme, which has been chosen as a finalist for the CES Innovation Award. DISCover itself is not making any consoles. DISCover's business model is to help electronics manufacturers tap into the gaming industry. Using our technology they will be able to tap into a library of thousands of existing PC games using the DISCover standard. It's kind of similar to the Dolby or DVD standard. How it works is the games are scripted and the scripts are loaded onto the machine. We're going to script 2,000 games at launch.
And you're right, it isn't nearly as easy... which is why I said 'people who know what they are doing', and that this is for people who don't know what they are doing...
What the--.... that's fucking retarded if I understand it correctly. So it's only going to support a couple thousand PC games, and anything new has to be added to the list? That's the dumbest thing in the universe. That means that it'll be completely useless for amateur designers...
Fuck.
Quote:And you're right, it isn't nearly as easy... which is why I said 'people who know what they are doing', and that this is for people who don't know what they are doing...
Even if you know how to use a tv-out card, it's still not worth the trouble and you still play it like a PC. You still don't get it, do you?
Quote:Even if you know how to use a tv-out card, it's still not worth the trouble and you still play it like a PC. You still don't get it, do you?
Oh I get it, I just don't care. As I said, I think that anyone who can't figure out a PC is either incompetent or lazy. I see no point in encouraging that.
Quote: What the--.... that's fucking retarded if I understand it correctly. So it's only going to support a couple thousand PC games, and anything new has to be added to the list? That's the dumbest thing in the universe. That means that it'll be completely useless for amateur designers...
Unless they let you switch it to standard windows mode, in which case it'd be a normal PC... but that interview says that the Apex at least doesn't allow that.
Quote:Oh I get it, I just don't care. As I said, I think that anyone who can't figure out a PC is either incompetent or lazy. I see no point in encouraging that.
You're dumb, ABF. Very, very dumb.
This is not about being too dumb to use a PC. It's about being able to play PC games as fast and simply as you would console games, and playing console-like PC games more easily. Is that
really so difficult to understand??
Quote:Unless they let you switch it to standard windows mode, in which case it'd be a normal PC... but that interview says that the Apex at least doesn't allow that.
This still doesn't sound right, though. I'll need to look into it more.
Quote:You're dumb, ABF. Very, very dumb.
This is not about being too dumb to use a PC. It's about being able to play PC games as fast and simply as you would console games, and playing console-like PC games more easily. Is that really so difficult to understand??
Ooh so hard. Put in disk. Install. Run.
Oh, sure, there is more... you do have to keep up on patches, deal with crashing, and upgrading your PC once it gets out of date... and yes, PCs cost a lot more than consoles and get outdated at least as fast, faster if you want a top of the line system... but this doesn't change any of those facts. It does disguise the installing and running and upgrading (just buy a new one in a few years), but it won't change stuff like the old 'will this game run on my system' with any system more than a couple years old, or running out of hard drive space... and anyway dealing with PCs really isn't that hard if you want to learn!
The only legitimate complaint is price, and that is a real one. The $1500 you'll need as a minimum for a decent gaming PC is pretty steep...
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
What the--.... that's fucking retarded if I understand it correctly. So it's only going to support a couple thousand PC games, and anything new has to be added to the list? That's the dumbest thing in the universe. That means that it'll be completely useless for amateur designers...
Fuck.
I would imagine that the reason they need to write scripts is to ensure total compatibility with the machine (the idea is to make the game work with the machine, and not to make the machine work with the game, which is the whole reason behind such a device). And, it's pretty obvious that new games will require such scripting, and, if Apex is intelligent, they will make it very easy to obtain or even write such scripts. If they're serious about this machine they'll definitely know that.
What I wonder is how this machine will deal with its own inevitable obsolesence. The standards of PC obsolesence changes far more rapidly than those of consoles.
Quote:Ooh so hard. Put in disk. Install. Run.
Oh, sure, there is more... you do have to keep up on patches, deal with crashing, and upgrading your PC once it gets out of date... and yes, PCs cost a lot more than consoles and get outdated at least as fast, faster if you want a top of the line system... but this doesn't change any of those facts. It does disguise the installing and running and upgrading (just buy a new one in a few years), but it won't change stuff like the old 'will this game run on my system' with any system more than a couple years old, or running out of hard drive space... and anyway dealing with PCs really isn't that hard if you want to learn!
The only legitimate complaint is price, and that is a real one. The $1500 you'll need as a minimum for a decent gaming PC is pretty steep...
You just answered most of it yourself. Less maintenance, much lower price, etc. But the one thing that you
still fail to grasp is ease-of-use and practicality. How many people have their PCs right next to their tvs? How many people have their PCs and TVs set up in a way in which they can play their PCs on their TVs like they would a console? Probably none, I'm guessing. Do I need to crack out the sign language again?
Quote:I would imagine that the reason they need to write scripts is to ensure total compatibility with the machine (the idea is to make the game work with the machine, and not to make the machine work with the game, which is the whole reason behind such a device). And, it's pretty obvious that new games will require such scripting, and, if Apex is intelligent, they will make it very easy to obtain or even write such scripts. If they're serious about this machine they'll definitely know that.
True, if they make it easy for people to write or obtain their own scripts then it can still be a great console for amateur game designers.
Quote:What I wonder is how this machine will deal with its own inevitable obsolesence. The standards of PC obsolesence changes far more rapidly than those of consoles.
I wouldn't say
far more rapidly. If you buy a new gaming PC will all of the latest stuff, it should be able to handle the most graphically-impressive games for at least three years, which is a little bit shorter than the life of a console. And at $300 or $400, it's still cheaper than upgrading an old PC.
My computer is two years and four months old and it runs stuff competently... I did upgrade RAM threefold (128 to 384) after a year and a half, but other than that I've only added a harddrive. And it's only now that games that really push it are out... now sure if you're playing top FPSes you would have hit a celing with my comp a while back, but I don't.
I'd say that for PCs if you want to be able to run everything, no problems (with maybe some cutting down of some options late in the cycle but not much) with the top games, you've got to have a two year replacement cycle. If you do the 'wait until it barely runs current games' thing, then you can go three or four...
Quote:You just answered most of it yourself. Less maintenance, much lower price, etc. But the one thing that you still fail to grasp is ease-of-use and practicality. How many people have their PCs right next to their tvs? How many people have their PCs and TVs set up in a way in which they can play their PCs on their TVs like they would a console? Probably none, I'm guessing. Do I need to crack out the sign language again?
True, PCs are usually in a place where you use them by yourself while consoles go by TVs in a social area... that is true. And yes, those areas are often far apart... but you could get a long cable... hey, I'm talking about people who do know what they are doing here and that probably wouldn't be a big obstacle.
And as for people who don't know PCs, as I said, I don't care about them.
Quote:True, if they make it easy for people to write or obtain their own scripts then it can still be a great console for amateur game designers.
We'll see how open they make it. But yes, I hope they make it easy... I don't know if they want to do some quality control thing or something like the console companies do...
Quote:True, PCs are usually in a place where you use them by yourself while consoles go by TVs in a social area... that is true. And yes, those areas are often far apart... but you could get a long cable... hey, I'm talking about people who do know what they are doing here and that probably wouldn't be a big obstacle.
And as for people who don't know PCs, as I said, I don't care about them.
A long cable?? And what about the keyboard & mouse or controller? Get a long controller for them as well?? What an idiotic solution.
And you still don't get it! It's not about not knowing how to use a PC, but rather using it more intuitively and doing it for a lot less money. :bang: :bang: :bang:
Quote:We'll see how open they make it. But yes, I hope they make it easy... I don't know if they want to do some quality control thing or something like the console companies do...
The system would be more successful if anybody could develop for it.
I don't care about that "intuitive" part. As for price, that is a concern... but I'd think that any PC that's being sold for $300 will have to make some major compromises because if I go to a site and configure a computer I need to spend like $1600 minimum to get something decent!
And yes, it'd be more successful if anyone could develop for it... sort of. It'd sell among a specific group. That group isn't especially huge though, and certainly won't make the thing successful, and isn't anywhere near the target market of the system... oh yeah, and I still just don't get why so many people would be helped by this thing. It's just a PC that's really cheap!
Yes Brian, the compromises are that it only plays PC Games! :stick: A cheap PC that plays games real easily and can be played from the comfort of your living room.
*sigh*
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I still just don't get why so many people would be helped by this thing.
Quote:It's just a PC that's really cheap! [/B]
DING DING DING DING
Yeah, it only plays games, but that doesn't save money. The point is that to sell a PC for that cheap you've got to do something... Microsoft does it with the X-Box by eating a lot of money and by not using top-of-the-line parts. I'm sure that Apex will have to do the same thing -- lower-end videocards, less RAM, smaller hard drives, etc...
And remember there are two of them -- one for $300 and one for $400...
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Yeah, it only plays games, but that doesn't save money. The point is that to sell a PC for that cheap you've got to do something... Microsoft does it with the X-Box by eating a lot of money and by not using top-of-the-line parts. I'm sure that Apex will have to do the same thing -- lower-end videocards, less RAM, smaller hard drives, etc...
And remember there are two of them -- one for $300 and one for $400...
Of course they will. And consider why.
For one, most people still have SDTV. They are not, in any way, going to benefit from the thing having a super-duper video card, since 640x480 is what they're stuck with. Second, most mid-range videocards can handle just about any game out there, and if mass-produced for a vehicle such as this, costs can be reduced. There would be a standard set, the lack of which keeps parts for PCs high in price.
A top of the line machine from two years ago is more than sufficient to run just about anything, plus, the cost to manufacture such a machine today is probably about ten percent of what it was then.
The last thing you have to remember is that people who want the newest, bestest technology are exactly the people this thing ISN'T being marketed towards.
This thing probably won't take off, but the reasons for that are more plain: Marketing and commercial exposure.
Read the articles in those two links... it explains a lot of how it'll be that cheap. It's not top of the line. P4 1.4ghz, 20-40gb hdd, 256mb ram...
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Read the articles in those two links... it explains a lot of how it'll be that cheap. It's not top of the line. P4 1.4ghz, 20-40gb hdd, 256mb ram...
With the exception of the RAM, that is more than adequate to run any game.
Current games, yes. But it'll be inadaquate in two years for sure... it'll be on the edge for top-notch games in under a year, actually, if you want to push the graphics. Yes, 640x480 will help, but over time only so much... I hope people don't mind a two year replacement cycle if they want to keep getting modern 3d games.
What gets me is the RAM. That is too low. Everquest requires that as a minimum.
Also, I don't know why they didn't boost the clock speed some. 1.4 is adequate but it can't cost that much more to squeeze it perhaps three hundred MHz faster.
It seems pretty strange to release something now that's at the bare minimum for some games and expect it to last...
A Black Falcon Wrote:It seems pretty strange to release something now that's at the bare minimum for some games and expect it to last...
Well... that's Apex for you.
True. :)
Wait, a 10 character minimum post length? That's got to go!
*finds option and changes it to 1*
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