Tendo City

From nintendojo.com. I'll underline all of the games that sold more than Metroid Prime in December.

Quote:US Sales Figures For December 2002

Top 10 Selling Games for PS2 for December 2002


#1 GRAND THEFT AUTO:VICE Take-Two Interactive 1,581,519
#2 DRAGON BALL Z:BUDOKAI Infogrames 787,173
#3 MADDEN NFL 2003 Electronic Arts 678,412
#4 LORD OF RINGS: TOWERS Electronic Arts 554,050
#5 BOND 007: NIGHTFIRE Electronic Arts 488,858
#6 TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR4 Activision 483,954
#7 MORTAL KOMBAT: DEADLY Midway 440 459,076
#8 KINGDOM HEARTS Square EA 445,363
#9 WWE: SHUT YOUR MOUTH THQ 010 381,194
#10 SOCOM:U.S. NAVY SEALS Sony 305,680


Top 10 Selling Games for Xbox for December 2002


#1 T.CLANCY'S SPLINTER Ubi Soft 633,337
#2 T.CLANCYS GHOST RECON Ubi Soft 262,019
#3 HALO Microsoft 223,553
#4 MORTAL KOMBAT: DEADLY Midway 179,147
#5 MECH ASSAULT Microsoft 174,761
#6 BOND 007: NIGHTFIRE Electronic Arts 171,133
#7 MEDAL HONOR FRONTLINE Electronic 146,216
#8 MADDEN NFL 2003 Electronic Arts 132,011
#9 UNREAL CHAMPIONSHIP Infogrames 103,556
#10 TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR4 Activision 103,843


Top 10 Selling Games for GameCube for December 2002


#1 METROID PRIME Nintendo 358,876
#2 MARIO PARTY 4 Nintendo 237,369
#3 BOND 007: NIGHTFIRE Electronic Arts 148,438
#4 SUPER SMASH BRO MELEE Nintendo 131,281
#5 ANIMAL CROSSING Nintendo 130,321
#6 HARRY POTTER: CHAMBER Electronic Arts 133,019
#7 SUPER MARIO SUNSHINE Nintendo 111,334
#8 RESIDENT EVIL ZERO Capcom 111,334
#9 STAR FOX ADVENTURES Nintendo 95 98,899
#10 SONIC MEGA COLLECTION Sega 119,626



December Hardware Sales:
PS2: 2,733,000
XBOX: 1,033,000
GCN: 619,000
GBA: 2,215,000


Cumulative Installed Base:
PS2: 15,870,000
XBOX: 4,601,000
GCN: 3,583,000
GBA: 11,894,000


Tie Ratios:
PS2: 6.09
XBOX: 4.74
GCN: 4.67
GBA: 2.74


(jp)

Source: videostockgroup

Good lord almighty. I can't believe these figures. Look at all of those shitty PS2 games that outsold Metroid Prime. Splinter Cell sold almost twice as many units than Prime in December. There were almost twice as many X-Boxes sold in December than Gamecubes, and now the X-Box has a million unit lead over the GC in Nortth America.

Can you imagine what's going to happen if Nintendo doesn't release their next console at the same time as the PS3 and X-Box 2? They're dead! There is no way around it.

If those numbers are accurate, this is really bad for Nintendo... but are they? What is this "videostockgroup"? As far as I know the most reliable sales info comes from the NPD TRSTS sales lists...

Even so, this is REALLY bad if even close to accurate. Nintendo really seems to be struggling here... of course, they really aren't helping their case, what with all of their unhelpful things they are doing (no net multiplay, bad advertising, etc), but still... they should be doing better than that!

Oh, NPD's latest list (on their website anyway) is for November... In that month, Metroid was #2 overall.
http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?ne...cle24.html

Sadly, those numbers are accurate. The numbers are ripped from the recently-released CSFB report that quoted NPD. Gamecube was indeed swamped by Xbox in a 400,000+ margine, and Splinter Cell is now ahead of Metroid Prime by 125,000 units. In addition, it has the momentum that Metroid Prime lost through December, so it'll probably extend that lead. Perhaps the whole "180 rush" idea was not so great. This is probably the set of data that has pushed Nintendo to unleash the "Buy a Gamecube, get a game free" campaign. If Zelda turns out to miss its intended audience and sell lower than Star Fox Adventure levels, Nintendo will have a very somber E3 2003. Hopefully, Skies of Arcadia Legends will do better in the US than it did in Japan, and Zelda will somehow outsell its Japanese counterpart.

Why wouldn't PS2 games sell a lot better than GC games? The PS2 has a 15 million installed user base, so of course the games are going to sell a lot.

Really the only Xbox games that sold very good was Splinter Cell and from what I've read it's November sales were a lot lower than than MP's.

Yeah, the PS2 numbers don't bother me because of it's much bigger user-base, but SC selling so much more does. Nintendo needs to realize that MS is starting to take all the momentum, and if Nintendo doesn't advertise this new bundle deal they'd better be happy staying in 3rd place in the US.

Yeah the PS2 does have a far greater user base, but these numbers are still depressing.

I still don't think anybody at the real Nintendo even cares how things sell outside of Japan. To them the XBox is a failure and not even worth considering.

At this point, Nintendo fans should just worry about buying Nintendo's games and hope they can keep the business well organized and working well at the same scale it always has been. Nintendo won't be winning any major sales numbers until Sony and MS make as major economic mistakes as the N64 and Nintendo capitalizes on their mistake. That and some new attitude among the general population is the only thing that will reverse this.

Buy a Gamecube and get a free game ? Its just a knee jerk reaction. Too little, too late. Momentum has been lost in 1996 unfortunately.

I think Sony has shown a bit of loss in its own momentum however. The casual game craze isn't quite what it was in the PSX era, and perhaps they might make that crutial mistake that Nintendo needs them to in 2004-5. Maybe things will change in another few years ?

At that point Mr. Iwata needs to be ready to kick ass to reclaim Nintendo's rightful glory.

N-A: I think everyone has to understand that there are different types of fans. The pure gamers are the people that are heavily invested in the gaming side of things. Sony, Microsoft, and other companies don't matter to a Nintendo fan like this. The casual gamers are consumers. Nobody like this will show up to a message board and discuss video games because their interest in video games is as much as our interest in movies (I'm assuming that nobody here is a movie fanatic, but I could be very wrong). It's simply entertainment, and decisions are often based upon "buzz." Unfortunately, the video game industry is not mature enough to have the mass publication of critical analysis that the movie or music industry has. Therefore, you have games like Dragon Ball Z:Budokai sell 750K+ in its first month. Of course, there is the analyst. This person is interested not only in the enjoyment of gameplay, but also in the success of a company. The best parallel that I can draw is to the sport of football (double-meaning, but it applies wherever you live). The "casual" type would watch football on television, understand the rules, enjoy the game, but never really get personally involved. The "pure game" type would analyse the style of play and the amount of entertainment received from each game, but not really care about the success of the team. Finally, the "analyst" types are personally invested in the success of the team. They criticize the company not only for the quality of the game, but for the decisions of the coaches/administration. Just like the video game industry, there are varying degrees and overlaps of these categories. For example, people watching an American football game (especially Raiders fans) dress up in silly costumes and yell when when they feel that the coach has made a dumb move (not going for it on 4th down, etc.). These people are often blind to any criticism of the team, and when they are approached by any, they become defensive. Sound familiar? Gaming "fanboys" are often blind to any criticism as well. But to balance these types there are the ESPN analysts that go behind the results and delve into the miniscule aspects of the game, drawing less-subjective conclusions and acknowledging any biases they may have. I'd like to think that there is a bit of that here.

Quote:I think Sony has shown a bit of loss in its own momentum however. The casual game craze isn't quite what it was in the PSX era, and perhaps they might make that crutial mistake that Nintendo needs them to in 2004-5. Maybe things will change in another few years ?

You realize, of course, that the PS2 is far ahead of where the PSX was at the same time, yes?

And that the PS2 has more market share now than the PSX ever did, yes?

Hey I'm really into movies. Mostly asian movies, but that's an even bigger industry than Hollywood.

Nintendarse - I don't quite understand what you're trying get at outside of the casual gamer thing, but I'm not a new who doesn't understand the difference between a casual gamer, a hardcore gamer, and a console loyalist.

Whatever it is, if the casual gamer were to pick up any game and enjoy it, so why has Nintendo lost its former glory ? There isn't a rule that says casual gamers MUST AVOID Nintendo games, or casual gamers MUST AVOID AAA games.

Nintendo has lost its momentum and can't win because with that they lost market dominance, and along with that they lost something important - the perception to the casual gamer that they can buy a Gamecube and have a vast variety of games to play on it. Nintendo fought a one company war on the N64, and even with Gamecube and their cooperation with Capcom, and Namco, its not carrying any particular momentum because Sony has the momentum and they would rather chip in their power to go with the bandwagon. Hell Konomi still says Nintendo is a piece of shit, and Namco is completely DISENCHANTED with their partnership with Nintendo. Theres no winning back the momentum that a giant monster has until it crashes into the sidelanes where you can then steal the momentum back. This is quite obvious that Nintendo still hasn't regained the momentum of 3rd party support it had in the SNES era.

My whole point here is that Nintendo will NEVER REGAIN, or more to the point - HAVE A CHANGE OF REGAINING the momentum until Sony actually blunder BY THEMSELVES in a manner as big as the N64. And thats how oligopolies work. Just review the history on how Microsoft defeated Lotus and WordPerfect. Do you see Lotus or Wordperfect ever regaining the office productivity software dominance in the forseeable future ? Maybe if Microsoft gets torn into 20 peices yeah... if thats realistic at all.

Hudson - haven't looked at stats in a while, but if you have, you're probably right then. I was under the impression that economic times would push the casual gamers out first, and that the Xbox has diluted the PS2 market.

Hmm, that's true. But there shouldn't be any reason for Nintendo to be in third place behind Microsoft in North America and Europe.

I'm sorry that I bought Kingdom Hearts and it outsold Metroid, forgive me

But Wordperfect is still better than Word... I use my 1996 version of it, not no good Word 2000... (just like Netscape 7 is FAR superior to any version of IE)... but like the Cube, they are WAY behind the leader.

At least Nintendo has a decent market share, unlike Wordperfect, Lotus, or Netscape... they haven't been relegated to Mac-like 'only the faithful pay attention' status. They at least still have a chance to come back and be successful... it just requires EFFORT from their part. I don't see that happening... Nintendo seems happy to stay in second or third if it means that they don't have to change much... :(

I just don't see Nintendo regaining any momentum unless BOTH Sony BADLY messes up AND Nintendo actually changes, for once... and does it wholeheartedly not some lame attempt at semi-'change' way too late...

Yeah, Nintendo is really doing a lot better than a lot of people here think. They are still selling millions of games and systems ya know. Just because they are trailing behind Sony doesn't mean much. MS is pretty much in the same position by the way, trailing Sony. Why are they popular like Nintendo? I'd say they earned it. My XBox game collection has been getting big lately, and it's finally earned it's keep. I even got myself an XBox Live starter kit (which I may end up cancelling in a year should I not have 50 bucks, or if MS decides to do a monthly fee thing then).

I have wordperfect on the computer in my room, but I always end up using Word 2000 because if I start the project at school I start it with Word 97, I don't think I've used Wordperfect in years, I don't even remember what version I have

I just got really used to WordPerfect 6.1 (its from 1996, but runs in either Win3.1 or Win95) since I've been using it since 6th or 7th grade... I had to use Word 2000 (the version that came with my computer... if I had the choice, I wouldn't have gotten it but that wasn't an option... :( ) for a month or two last year before I got Wordperfect 6 installed. I didn't like it any more than I ever have... that is, very very little. I'm just so used to Wordperfect and its interface... and the things that Word doesn't seem to have... I don't know. I never got fully used to Word. I don't think I want to try to... as far as I've seen, Word still hasn't caught up to Wordperfect from 1996 (well, except long filename support and underlining misspelled words, but newer versions of wordperfect have that stuff too).

Yes, so I still use a word processor that requires 8-letter filenames... its a little annoying, but not enough to make me use the (IMO) far inferior Word. I wish I could get a new version of Wordperfect, but word processors are so expensive that I don't see that as a sane use of money while I have a word processor that works just fine... even though its way cheaper than Word, Wordperfect still costs a lot...

To bad that most companies where you can get a job would be using word

You think Word is inferior ? Strangely, I don't like the MS monopoly too much because it makes everything needlessly expensive compared to back when there was competition, BUT MS actually made Word a well put together peice of software.

Back in the days of Office productivity software wars in 1980s-1995, the leading word processor was Lotus Ami Pro... way more features than either of Word or Wordperfect, and very well integrated. Wordperfect kicked MS Word's arse, but coming into 1995 and the coming of Windows 95, Word suddenly made an about face. Taking every single feature present in other competiting products, and putting them together in one peice of software and adding tons of ergonomical features, theres a reason why people now favor Word as the international document standard and why Claris and Lotus have all but disappeared from the maket.

I find myself that the last version of Word Perfect I used, was incredibly clumsy and not very ergonomic and well integrated into Windows in comparison to Lotus Word Pro and bar a far cry, MS Word.

N_A: let me first appologize for my first post. Blame it on NyQuil. One sentence of thought turned into a huge paragraph, and then...blah. To summarize...although the best thing for Nintendo fans to do right now is to concentrate on the games, some people will forever obsess over sales data and administrative decisions.

Sucess of Nintendo: I slightly disagree with the fact that Sony has to make a huge mistake for Nintendo to regain the #1 spot. That is only one case of a general statement. It is my belief that Nintendo can regain the #1 spot if, relative to Nintendo, Sony makes a blunder. This added relativity allows for one more obvious case: Nintendo does something brilliant, and Sony gets complacent and continues to do what it is doing. Now, Nintendo hasn't done anything radically brilliant (in terms of business) since the release of the NES, so the probability is low, but you never know with Iwata at the helm.

If Sony makes a mistake, then it'll be Microsoft who capatilize, not Nintendo.

:(

The way I see it is if Sony get too far ahead of themselves trying to revolutionize computers and electronics, again. Cell technology will most likely be a blessing, if used in a non-networked environment (ie. just put a million of them on one chip, rather than spread over 50 computers/household appliances). Their whole "freedom to develop" approach is commendable, but it makes developement of games for the system a MAJOR hassle. I'd love to see them make something like the PS2 again, and give developers total freedom. But they must release code libraries and compilers BEFORE LAUNCH. Hell, I don't think Sony released any libraries at all this generation. Just snippets, and let other developers do the work (Naughty Dog, Criterion etc.)

This sort of freedom/architecture with the PS2 has allowed a console with technology 2 years older than GCN and XBox to STILL be putting out games that compare, and excel past many of their best looking titles. Technology that keeps on giving, but not at the initial expense of the developers. Otherwise Microsoft with their PC in-a-box will swoop in all the US market, with almost ease after only 1 - 2 years (particularly because they are being released so close together).

Of course, if Sony screwed up, imagine what we'd be looking at with a Microsoft monopoly on our hands.....

blah blah blah, ranting. I stop now. :)

I tried to get used to Word 2000... I had to use it for over a month before I got the WordPerfect CD from home to install that onto my comp with. I definitely prefer Wordperfect 6.1 to Word 2000. No question... Of course, the fact I've now been using Wordperfect 6.1 for 6 or 7 years, and thus and very familiar with it, I'm sure has a impact on my not being used to or liking Word's interface and design... still, Wordperfect 6.1 (the 1996 edition) does have some things Word 2000 doesn't. One that comes to mind is that in wordperfect, when you have multiple files open, they open in multiple windows in the same main Wordperfect window, not in seperate occurances of the program like Word does. Nice... like how Netscape 7's tabbed browsing is one of the (many) reasons that it's better than Explorer.

As for the console war... Yeah, I do fear that if Sony makes a mistake Microsoft is better prepared to adapt and try to capitalize on it... adaptibility and change have clearly not been things Nintendo has any skill at all in...

I realize that Nintendo and its fans need to concentrate on the games, rather than the sales, but of course, thats the genius of it all. While it maybe disappointing to see your favorite fall from glory to mediocritry in terms of popularity, I would say that Nintendo knows how to adapt to the reality of the situation... that they truly have lost their momentum.

They always concentrate on the games, but what is intelligent about their strategy is that they do not try to fight the inevitable. Rather than over extending their resources to TRY - and try very uselessly to overthrow Sony and Microsoft, they spend their resources with what they have, secure a hardcore following such as us that simply love Nintendo AAA stuff, and keep the business well managed so that they are profitable at the smaller scale at which they operate. Testimony to that is that they are rated best managed Japanese company by the Nikkei.

Hehe, being a Go player, I can see why Mr. Yamauchi has followed this strategy, and it has worked... problem is I'm sure that Mr. Iwata is aware of this too, but like Mr. Yamauchi, can only make preparations to kick Sony and MS's ass, but have to wait for the opportunity when they fuck up.

I can think of two things Nintendo could do to help sales.

1) Secure more exclusive games. This means bringing out the money hats.

2) Advertise the hell out of the system and said exclusive games.

Nintendo doesn't need to be number one but they could be number two if they were more agressive.

Other things Nintendo could do to help sales:

Reduce the price of all regular games to $40 and Player's Choice games to $20.

The Wizard 2: Jimmy's Revenge

Um... they ARE number 2, well world wide. In the US they are a close 3rd, and I mean very close. Online support could push them into second in the US too.

>>Click Me<<

Quote:Xbox Becomes the Middle Child
The big 'box now firmly in second place behind PS2.

January 23, 2003 - Guess who's pushed past the GameCube? After the holiday season has been tallied and all tales told, Xbox is clearly in second place in the console race, though far behind PS2, with GameCube trailing (but not too far behind).
According to NPD numbers for December, Microsoft's console now owns 24% of the overall market with GameCube taking in 14%. Xbox had a huge surge in December, which saw a record number of Xbox consoles and software fly off the shelves and into the homes of happy gamers. Console sales were 43% higher than the previous record month of November 2001. Compared to December 2001, the final month of 2002 saw console sale increases of 48% for Xbox, 39% for PS2, and 8% for GameCube. Microsoft projects there will be over nine million Xbox owners by the end of their fiscal year in June.

Even more impressive than the skyrocketing console sales were Xbox software sales in December, which were 80% higher than the previous record month of December 2001. Leading the software pack was Splinter Cell, which sold a million units in six weeks and has gone on to become the second best selling Xbox game in the U.S. Splinter Cell also outsold Nintendo's Metroid Prime by 19% in their first two months.

Nintendo's greatest problem is clearly with third-party titles. Xbox has seen 56% greater third-party sales than the GameCube in just over a year of existence. Xbox even has some bragging rights over the PS2, with a 70% higher attach rate for multiplatform titles. Note, that's not 70% higher sales. The attach rate merely means units per console sold. So, while there are less Xbox owners out there, percentage-wise they are favoring the Xbox when it comes to cross-platform titles.

"We are very please with the holiday results," said Robbie Bach, Chief Xbox Officer. "Xbox is the next-generation console of choice and the clear No. 2 across the United States, Canada, and throughout Europe."

Of course, PS2 continues to be the number one Next-Generation choice, far outselling Xbox and GameCube in both hardware and software sales.

On the foreign side of things, the Xbox continues to perform strong in Europe, doubling GameCube sales in the UK. And Europe as a whole has strongly supported Xbox, which is now the number two console behind PS2. However, things still look gloomy in Japan, where Xbox continues to struggle. Xbox Live just launched in Japan, but sales numbers are not yet known.

While Xbox continues to battle GameCube for second place, Sony is running away with the show. We'll keep an eye on the numbers and keep you informed, so stay tuned.

-- IGN Xbox

Quote:This sort of freedom/architecture with the PS2 has allowed a console with technology 2 years older than GCN and XBox to STILL be putting out games that compare, and excel past many of their best looking titles.

Are you mad? The best-looking PS2 games can't even come close to the best-looking GC and X-Box games.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Are you mad? The best-looking PS2 games can't even come close to the best-looking GC and X-Box games.

Bah.. do you really wanna take the thread off-topic?

Silent Hill 3 looks just as good as Resident Evil 4, and Splinter Cell. From the lighting, to textures. SH3 also has the best character models I've ever seen.

Zone of the Enders 2: The Second Runner looks better than any other Cel-Shaded game. Including Zelda: Kaze no Takuto (and it's running at twice the framerate). IMO, it's also ahead of JSRF.

ZOE 2 was also voted as the best looking game at the most recent Tokyo Game Show, in which games such as Panzer Dragoon Orta were being shown.

Burnout 2 is the best looking racing game I have seen on any system, with Gran Turismo 3 and Rallisport Challenge not too far behind.

I really don't want to get started on Jak & Daxter and Ratchet & Clank, given that you'll never admit to their beauty. :)

Blah blah blah blah, so shut up.

Haha, you crack me up. ZOE 2 isn't even cel-shaded.

SH 3 looks good, but it's too early to compare it to RE 4 since that game isn't even coming out until 2004. But even at its early stage RE4 has proven to look a lot better than SH 3 in terms of environments.

And there still aren't any PS2 games that look even half as good as Rogue Leader.

Don't start with the whole Jak and Ratchet thing. You've already shown your inability to differentiate between good textures (RL) and shit textures (J&D), so we don't need to go through this again.

I feel another 50 page OB1 vs. another member of the board debate about to unfold.

*slips hands in pockets and walks away*

Ugh, I know. I wish I weren't the only person here to point out the stupidity of Hudson's comments.

It's just... so... boring. Is he really that biased? Is he partially blind? What is it?

ps2 games look like shite compared to NGC and XBox with the exception of poorly done ps2-GC ports and very poorly done XBox-ps2-gc ports.

I haven't seen ZOE2, so I don't know what the deal is there. I do agree, however, that Silent Hill 3 looks beautiful and comparable to some of GC's latest and greatest (PN03 and RE4). The only thing not taken into consideration there is how big the environments in SE3 are, which look rather small, actually (I wouldn't be surprised if they turned out that way, as claustrophobia is typically part of how anxiety and fear are conveyed in Silent Hill games).

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Ugh, I know. I wish I weren't the only person here to point out the stupidity of Hudson's comments.

It's just... so... boring. Is he really [b]that biased? Is he partially blind? What is it? [/B]

The stupidity of my comments??

Quote:Haha, you crack me up. ZOE 2 isn't even cel-shaded

LMAO, you fucking moron. It is Cel-Shaded. And it's the most impressive cel-shading I've ever seen. Those particle effects.

Quote:SH 3 looks good, but it's too early to compare it to RE 4 since that game isn't even coming out until 2004. But even at its early stage RE4 has proven to look a lot better than SH 3 in terms of environments.

You're underestimating the quality of SH3's environements. Really, go download some of the videos available. The most impressive thing about RE4's graphics (assuming they weren't just animations, considering we haven't seen in-game yet) were the incredibly fluid movement of the clothes and curtains. Makes Spliner Cell's curtain effects look like shit.

SH3 has the character models, the lighting, and the environments are about even, from what I've seen, but, whatever.

Quote:And there still aren't any PS2 games that look even half as good as Rogue Leader.

Well, that's an exageration, but RL is a beautiful game. ZOE2 certainly compares, despite it being Cel-shaded.

Quote:Don't start with the whole Jak and Ratchet thing. You've already shown your inability to differentiate between good textures (RL) and shit textures (J&D), so we don't need to go through this again.

I never once said J&D's and R&C's textures were good. But their environments are huge, and surprisingly detailed. It's an absolute beauty to look at.

ZOE 2 looks pretty good, but it isn't celshaded [unless they used some kind of celshading technique that makes it look like it isn't celshaded.]






Now on wether or not SH3 or RE4 looks better [from what I have seen] RE4 looks better. Not to say that SH3 doesn't look incredible.

RE4







SH3

Haha, if that's supposed to be cel-shading then they're doing a terrible job at it, Hudson. Would you like to know what cel-shading is? It's the process of texturing and shading a 3-D model to make it look like a flat, 2-D object.

And the SH 3 environments are extremely small. The models are certainly comparable to RE 4's models, but the environments don't even come close:

Whoa, those RE4 environments are real-time, too, aren't they? That's pretty amazing. I'd love to see more of the lighting effects they'll implement as well.

Aesthetically speaking, though, I think Silent Hill 3 looks better. Not as though that has anything to do with the technology behind it. I'm just your average Silent Hill ho.

Those screens are 100% real-time, and the game will only look bette when it comes out.

Um, maybe I need to see more screenshots, but based on those two I don't see why SH3 is so amazing looking... good texturing, certainly, but amazing? I don't know... not based on that...

RE4, though, sure is looking good. :)

The SH 3 textures are good and a lot of the models are good, but with environments as tiny as those, it's not that amazing. But it is a PS2 game, so that makes it even more impressive-looking.

ZOE2 is cel-shaded. And in motion, it looks like a frickin' anime movie come to life.

But it does look very convincing from a polygonal standpoint. I suggest you download the movies, much like with Zelda, the pics do it no justice. The effects are incredible.

And I would imagine that not all of the SH3 environments are small. Paticularly seeing as we know they are NOT (it starts off in a fairly large amusement park). And we have seen shots, and videos of her exploring the park.

And those pics in RE4 really don't show much from a texture point of view, although having already seen the early trailer, we already know the textures are outstanding.

But I go back to my original statement that the open-ended architecture of the PS2 has allowed developers to find their own ways to exploit the machine, and thus allowing them to keep up with (relatively) what the GCN and XBox are doing, graphically. How anyone can claim the PS2 is lagging behind is beyond me (although you didn't really say that, it appeared to be implied).

And I still think it has a ways to go, as well. I can just imagine what Metal Gear Solid 3 will look like.

Quote:ZOE2 is cel-shaded. And in motion, it looks like a frickin' anime movie come to life.

But it does look very convincing from a polygonal standpoint. I suggest you download the movies, much like with Zelda, the pics do it no justice. The effects are incredible.

Seriously though, what on earth makes you believe that it's cel-shaded?

And it doesn't look convinving from a polygonal standpoint? WTF? Is that supposed to make any sense?

Quote:And I would imagine that not all of the SH3 environments are small. Paticularly seeing as we know they are NOT (it starts off in a fairly large amusement park). And we have seen shots, and videos of her exploring the park.

Show me one single screen shot of a big, complex environment in SH 3 and I'll shut up.

Quote:But I go back to my original statement that the open-ended architecture of the PS2 has allowed developers to find their own ways to exploit the machine, and thus allowing them to keep up with (relatively) what the GCN and XBox are doing, graphically.

The PS2 is the most difficult of the three systems to develop for. Just about every major developer has already states that developing for the PS2 is a humongous pain in the ass. Finding a way to make games look anti-aliased was in itself a huge task for many developers. Making textures look passable is also a big problem. There is nothing good about the PS2 hardware compared to the GC and X-Box hardware, and there are no PS2 games that look as good as the best GC and X-Box games.

Quote:How anyone can claim the PS2 is lagging behind is beyond me (although you didn't really say that, it appeared to be implied).

Because we have eyes.

I read IGN's preview of ZOE2 and they don't mention anything about it being cel-shaded.

In an old preview they did mention that one of the smoke puffs was cel-shaded, but that's it. And the smoke doesn't look cel-shaded in the latest videos.

But if that's the amazing cel-shading that Hudson claims is better than Wind Waker, he's off his rocker.

The cel-shading in WW in currently the best in any game. Nintendo managed to create a true saturday-morning cartoon look for Zelda, and I have yet to see anything else that even comes close.

Hudson's avatar frightens me...

That's from "Scanners", am I right Hudson?

i downloaded a bunch of pictures of both ZOE2 and SH3 and none of them looked that impressive. the character models in SH3 are no better than those in RE or RE:0 and the backgrounds looked no better than ED IMO. also, ZOE2 doesn't appear cell shaded at all, from both the screenshots and the partial movie i downloaded. i couldn't download the full movies because my internet kept getting disconnected part way through. i hate my dorm's internet connection BTW.

but yeah, my point is just that neither of these games look half as good as i expected them to after reading about them here. maybe i need to see more of ZOE2 in motion...and maybe i just didn't see enough of SH3.

oh, and i further agree with OB1 that SE3's environments all seem small and confined.

wow, i never thought i'd agree with OB1 so many times in one post.

I watched the ZOE2 trailer at Konami's E3 booth several times. There was no cell shading at all that I could see. PH is on crack. :)

You guys are finally beginning to see the light. :D