Tendo City

Only the British one mind you. Now, first off since they are in fact a private organization (I think :D), they can do as they will. However, they are called the Red CROSS! Under this new rule, won't they have to change their name? Unless they mean to go to what the cross USED to represent, that is pain and suffering.

They even have to call it something else in the Middle-east so they won't offend any Muslims.

Red Crescent. And for a group that is involved in nonpartizan aid and stuff it's probably a good move.

Well we still have hospitals with life sized Jesus statues in my province.They have him right next to the snack bar.

Red cross = England. Christians like to claim that the simplest design possible, crossing two lines, is theirs...but I'm sure that prior to Christianity and the Christ fables, that SOMEONE some WHERE crossed two sticks or drew two opposing lines some where.

Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Red cross = England. Christians like to claim that the simplest design possible, crossing two lines, is theirs...but I'm sure that prior to Christianity and the Christ fables, that SOMEONE some WHERE crossed two sticks or drew two opposing lines some where.

I don't recall a single Christian EVER saying that they were the ones to invent the design, nor have I even heard such a thing implied. Obviously, since it was adapted from an instrument used by the Romans before the birth of Christ, that should be pretty obvious that it wasn't. But it is one of our symbols nontheless, and most people associate the cross with Christ, as Christianity is the oldest entity around today to have used it.

Darunia, your hatred of religion seems to have sprouted some odd ideas.

Of course Christians didn't invent it. Romans did and it was an instrument of torture. I even said as much. Christians just turned it into a symbol of salvation, and that's what it's known as world wide. If the Red Cross was to completely remove all symbols of Christ from their organization in England, they'd HAVE to change their name because let's face it, cross means Jesus now. They'd have to go back to what it USED to represent or just come up with a new meaning. However, if they did that, what's the point of removing the other symbols in the first place? I mean, a Christmas tree isn't a sacred symbol of Christianity like a cross, it's just KINDA a symbol, and yet THAT'S getting ditched.

Secularists are funny.

Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Red cross = England. Christians like to claim that the simplest design possible, crossing two lines, is theirs...but I'm sure that prior to Christianity and the Christ fables, that SOMEONE some WHERE crossed two sticks or drew two opposing lines some where.

The cross is a stake was for torture and execution practice by the romans, Jesus was cruisified on it and many groups adopted the symbol as the christian lego later on.

Why do you view Christianity as backwards?while it is true many sopposed individuals who proclaim themselves as christians are backwards but its no different then islam as Osama bin ladin doesnt represent the entire religion.

Also Darunia if you practice christmas and set up a tree and decorations ,then your pretty hypocritacle as a Atheist practicing a Christianize celebration.

No, not in this day and age... and anyway, Christmas isn't especially Christian. And only partly religous... but we went over that like two days ago. :)

As for religion... I think that I can fully understand why in the past people believed. They had no way to figure out a better explanation for why things happened, and religion answered the tough questions... but now? In most of the things religion covers we know better! The only reason it still exists is it's been ingrained into us over five thousand years...

Science explains who, what, when, where and how. But it has no good reason for "why", and expects up to believe that everything we know and the infinitely massive amount that we don't is here only because of extraordinarily impossible chance happenings. Until there is a better explanation than that, and until science can account for everything, there will always be gods and faiths.

Quote:Red cross = England.

Darunia, buddy. The red cross does represent England - it's Saint George's cross.

That's irrelevant however, as the ICRC's symbol is not St. George's cross but rather the Swiss flag with reversed colours. Said flag was given to the Swiss as representative of their freedom by the Holy Roman Emperor - to suppose it isn't a Christian symbol is to be a little oblivious to reality.

That said, I don't really give a damn whether the RC decides to remove mention of Jesus, or to dress only in purple, or to serve boiled cabbage to workers for dinner; as long as it keeps doing its job (well).

Religion greatly over-estimates the importance of humanity, and greatly under-estimates the impact of chance and the laws of the universe... we are not the center of the universe. The universe was not created for us. We are not the sole reason for existance. I know that you wish that we could still believe that the earth is the center of the universe, but it isn't... now religion says 'but it's so unlikely that things could have evolved the way they did on Earth, so it CAN'T be that!'. That just makes no sense. So it isn't likely. ... uh, so? The fact that life didn't survive in the rest of the solar system helps coroborate that, as does how we haven't detected any radio signals from outer space yet... so it was a complex and fragile set of circumstances that led life to evolve here. Why is that so hard to believe? Oh yeah, and just because we are smarter than the other species doesn't mean we are so much better... other species are intelligent too (some apes and monkeys are as smart as young children), you know... but no, WE are why everything exists. Or at least we are so special and amazing and great and unique that the whole universe was created just so we could exist.

Talk about pretendious.

As I said, science has answered lots of questions... and from looking at that we can see the likely answers to more. Religon just has to keep backing up -- well maybe the Earth wasn't created by God in seven days 5,324.754 years ago, but darnit he created it sometime! Well maybe he didn't create the Earth, but he created the universe! Well maybe he didn't create the universe, but he created the stuff that created the universe and guided it along just so we could exist!

That is just so incredibly absurd that I can't think of what to say.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Religion greatly over-estimates the importance of humanity, and greatly under-estimates the impact of chance and the laws of the universe... we are not the center of the universe. The universe was not created for us. We are not the sole reason for existance. I know that you wish that we could still believe that the earth is the center of the universe, but it isn't... now religion says 'but it's so unlikely that things could have evolved the way they did on Earth, so it CAN'T be that!'. That just makes no sense. So it isn't likely. ... uh, so? The fact that life didn't survive in the rest of the solar system helps coroborate that, as does how we haven't detected any radio signals from outer space yet... so it was a complex and fragile set of circumstances that led life to evolve here. Why is that so hard to believe? Oh yeah, and just because we are smarter than the other species doesn't mean we are so much better... other species are intelligent too (some apes and monkeys are as smart as young children), you know... but no, WE are why everything exists. Or at least we are so special and amazing and great and unique that the whole universe was created just so we could exist.

Talk about pretendious.

As I said, science has answered lots of questions... and from looking at that we can see the likely answers to more. Religon just has to keep backing up -- well maybe the Earth wasn't created by God in seven days 5,324.754 years ago, but darnit he created it sometime! Well maybe he didn't create the Earth, but he created the universe! Well maybe he didn't create the universe, but he created the stuff that created the universe and guided it along just so we could exist!

That is just so incredibly absurd that I can't think of what to say.

No imagination at all.

For one thing, you assume the Bible should be taken word for word, when the thing is loaded with metaphors and subtlety.

For another, I appreciate random chance and coincidence. I, however, do not for a second believe that, considering everything science has discovered about the universe that:

1. There is infinity. There is some great infinity that just cannot end. That much is obvious.
2. Somewhere within this infinite space, somehow, some molecules were formed.
3. Somehow, enough of these molecules came together and caused a giant explosion.
4. Over billions of years, these molecules became incredibly complex, and formed an untold number of galaxies, and within, an even insanely higher number of constellations, nebulae, individual stars, and planets around them, more than we could hope to count in a thousand lifetimes.
5. There are literally endless variations on stars and planets. Thus, our star forms, along with what ends up being nine empty balls of rock orbiting it.
6. One of these balls of rock, the third, happens to be the exact distance necessary for some amazing stuff to start happening. Out of some of the most basic stuff of everything, this particular ball of rock, completely like none other we've ever seen, escapes the primeval existence and becomes something more. Over billions of years, this rock somehow escapes chance and forms the most basic life.
7. Against impossible odds, the conditions for this simple life form are such that it evolves. And evolves more. And more. This life takes on sentience, a completely new concept. Since the very beginning of everything, chemical reactions have always been happenstance and completely chaotic. Now, there are chemical reactions that can control themselves to an extent.
8. This life somehow ceases to be a mindless extension of the chaos that bore it, and acquires the ability to think and reason.
9. We now have, again, against impossible odds, an ecosystem. We have the one place in the known infinity that has a paradise for living things. Over aeons, species live and die, and acquire new abilites, basic emotions. Eventually, life forms are beings of incredible complexity. No longer tiny, simplistic beings, life has now achieved an art form, as it were. Creatures now possess complex forms, and have completely adapted to their environment. They are much like machines we make today.
10. One of these countless species evolves. This being is unremarkable in many ways, being weaker, smaller, and slighter of senses than many larger beasts. Yet, it survives, and even thrives. This being eventually creates generations of offspring that, over time, alter themselves slightly. One of these dozens of variations, the human, is born.
11. This human has a brain exponentially more advanced than that of any other creature. It goes far beyond basic instinct, and develops higher thinking. It survives against odds and eventually becomes a social animal. It creates coverings, shelters, skins, and eventually learns new secrets, like fire, weapons, and language.
12. Development continues. The human now moves beyond merely eating plants and other animals, and learns how to cleverly farm and harvest these things. Man forms complex languages and heirarchies. Man also thinks like no other. Man questions things, wonders at his own existence, and is aware of there being things unknown, and with that, a desire to discover them. Man thinks of gods, and God in particular. Man begins to form beliefs and rituals, and unlike anything before it, practices recreation, creating things that have no practical purpose. Man learns language, creates music, creates stories and sagas. And man spreads the world.
13. Man is so spread out from their once-nomadic lifestyle, yet all of them experience this evolution of thought, some faster than others. Man moves from the concept of villages to cities, and from cities to nations, from nations to empires, all under complex systems of government. Man forms armies to protect or to conquer.
14. Over thousands of years, Empires rise and fall. Suddenly, the Industrial revolution occurs, and with it, humanity begins to advance at a far more rapid rate. Of these empires, one of them becomes the master of them all, the British. And this empire gives birth to America, who wins its independence from Britain against heavy odds.
15. The 20th century begins, and the industrial revolution kicks into overdrive. Humans do things that they could never even dream of. We create a weapon that can kill millions in an instant. We can fly higher than birds and swim deeper than fish. We can harness primal elements and use them for our own purposes. We have the ability to leave our own world and travel beyond it. During this time, America, once a step-child colony of a great empire, becomes the greatest in history, dominating the world's economy and wielding enough power to annihilate the world many times over.
16. Somewhere out of this entire mix, I am born. I am lucky enough to live a good life, despite a few shaky years. And I now sit here at my computer, defending my beliefs.

And you're telling me that I am sitting here, at my computer typing on a message board, completely because of chance. And not simple chance, or even remotely likely chance. Essentially, I am here right now because of trillions of trillions of trillions of seperate occurances that are so incredibly unlikely, the odds of them happening so low there probably isn't a number big enough to display them, and that if a huge majority of them happened any differently, even within a single percent, nothing would be here at all, or it would be so radically different that it is beyond comprehension. You're telling me that the incredible design of existence is the completely random and nearly-impossible chaos that we are so far away from even beginning to understand that we almost certainly never will, and there is absolutely no meaning at all behind any of it.

And you tell me my belief in a higher being is preposterous.

We wont go into another pointless debate .

There is no way convince either of us to accepting anything as we all have chosen what we believe by choice.

But my statement in regards to christmas was that even though you dislike and perhaps even refute religion, you have no problem with part taking of clearly relgious rituals and celebrations simpily because thats what every else does.

If everyone else decided to have a prayer to god and everyone who does so gets a cookie , would you also part take in that too because everyone else is doing it.So why would you as a unbeliever part take in a religous celebration soley because you want candies and toys.

I can't help it... I must reply. :)

Quote: We wont go into another pointless debate .

There is no way convince either of us to accepting anything as we all have chosen what we believe by choice.

But my statement in regards to christmas was that even though you dislike and perhaps even refute religion, you have no problem with part taking of clearly relgious rituals and celebrations simpily because thats what every else does.

If everyone else decided to have a prayer to god and everyone who does so gets a cookie , would you also part take in that too because everyone else is doing it.So why would you as a unbeliever part take in a religous celebration soley because you want candies and toys.

I wouldn't do that... like in the Pledge of Allegiance I most always dropped the 'under god' part because I don't agree with it. And as I said in the other thread, Christmas has more than enough non-religious (even more if we include 'not really religious anymore' stuff like Santa) overtones to make it a fine holiday for anyone.


Weltall...


Thank you, Weltall, for exactly proving my point. You just don't think that it could somehow be possible that we aren't the most important thing in the universe and that it IS just chance, good luck, and good circumstances (you know, like the fact that Earth is right in the right place in orbit around the Sun, unlike the rest of the planets) that make us here. You just can't handle the idea that we aren't the most important thing in all creation... because saying what you do is a barely covered way of saying that.

And it's just the most absurd idea ever.

Okay... you seem to either be hugely generalizing on these early ones, or you don't pay attention to discoveries in astronomy... I can't, obviously, explain everything here, since I don't understand anywhere near that...

But I will waste WAY too much of my time replying to everything you said, for some reason, given I know you won't listen to anything I say... and the fact that the simple statement 'learn your astrophysics and prehistory and give chance a chance' would pretty much sum it up. :)

You just bring up too many intresting questions that we don't have solid answers to for me not to say a lot.

Quote:1. There is infinity. There is some great infinity that just cannot end. That much is obvious.

Not in our universe, of course... the universe is finite. It has an edge. Outside of our universe? We have no clue. We cannot see there. I really don't know what is there... maybe there is NOTHING (outside of the universe(/s), no space, no dimensions, maybe there is something... we don't know, and I don't know if we ever will since seeing outside of our universe is kind of hard.

Quote:2. Somewhere within this infinite space, somehow, some molecules were formed.

The best theory I've heard is the 'bubble' theory -- one the edge of some other universe, a new one forms like a dot on the outside of that universe (bubble) and explodes in a bang, creating a new one that then spreads and spreads before petering out, and eventually new universes are created off the old ones... but that could be totally wrong. As I said, it's almost pure guesswork at this point. Which, by the way, doesn't validate your position...

Quote:3. Somehow, enough of these molecules came together and caused a giant explosion.

Heard some theories on this before, don't remember them. We don't know why yet but rest assured eventually we well might.

Quote:4. Over billions of years, these molecules became incredibly complex, and formed an untold number of galaxies, and within, an even insanely higher number of constellations, nebulae, individual stars, and planets around them, more than we could hope to count in a thousand lifetimes.

There is no such thing as a 'constellation'. You'd know that if you knew anything about astronomy... there is a universe. In it are galaxies, in strings. In a galaxy are stars, rotating around the center point on a plane. Each star has things rotating around it. And then some have things (moons) around them. Nebulae of course are huge gas clouds that stars are formed from. All of this makes perfect sense once you think of the forces that govern the universe (nuclear forces, gravity, etc).

Quote:5. There are literally endless variations on stars and planets. Thus, our star forms, along with what ends up being nine empty balls of rock orbiting it.

Yup. Nothing strange here.

Quote:6. One of these balls of rock, the third, happens to be the exact distance necessary for some amazing stuff to start happening. Out of some of the most basic stuff of everything, this particular ball of rock, completely like none other we've ever seen, escapes the primeval existence and becomes something more. Over billions of years, this rock somehow escapes chance and forms the most basic life.

Yes, the Earth just happened to be in the right place. There were a bunch of planets (depending what you call a planet, etc...), and only Earth was in the right place... life formed on Mars too, and well might have started on Venus, but those planets weren't the right distance so it failed there. There of course was also running water once on Mars, but because of how far away from the sun it is that all dried up... we are lucky. Also... we don't know how life began on the Earth (eg how the microbes first formed). There was a theory of some 'soup' in the oceans where the first algae formed, or maybe stuff falling off a asteroid, but I don't think we know for sure... it's definitely a big mystery at this point.

Quote:7. Against impossible odds, the conditions for this simple life form are such that it evolves. And evolves more. And more. This life takes on sentience, a completely new concept. Since the very beginning of everything, chemical reactions have always been happenstance and completely chaotic. Now, there are chemical reactions that can control themselves to an extent.

Hardly impossible, since it happened... but you bring up the biggest unknown in this whole debate, and one we truly have no answer for. How likely is all this? How likely is it for life to develop? We honestly have no clue. People have guesses all over the map, from intelligent species on every other solar system to just a couple in the galaxy to maybe in other galaxies... but at this point, all we can do is guess and look at what we know. The existance of ancient life on Mars is a BIG plus for the 'more common' side, though... sure, it died out, but it was there -- proving that we aren't the only place anywhere.

Quote:8. This life somehow ceases to be a mindless extension of the chaos that bore it, and acquires the ability to think and reason.

Uh, you call that so strange a idea? Sure, plants were first, but once you have plants I think that some kind of animals is inevitable... the two work together, with one you will find the other. Animals probably developed from early plants... but of course since we're talking about single cellular organisms here the definitions make it tough to draw an exact line.

Quote:9. We now have, again, against impossible odds, an ecosystem. We have the one place in the known infinity that has a paradise for living things. Over aeons, species live and die, and acquire new abilites, basic emotions. Eventually, life forms are beings of incredible complexity. No longer tiny, simplistic beings, life has now achieved an art form, as it were. Creatures now possess complex forms, and have completely adapted to their environment. They are much like machines we make today.

Evolution at work. Nothing amazing or strange or "hand of god" related... bigger and smarter = more capable and able to get more food! It's obvious.

Quote:10. One of these countless species evolves. This being is unremarkable in many ways, being weaker, smaller, and slighter of senses than many larger beasts. Yet, it survives, and even thrives. This being eventually creates generations of offspring that, over time, alter themselves slightly. One of these dozens of variations, the human, is born.

This proves how you find us the greatest thing and the most unique thing in all creation once again.

Now you skip many hundreds of millions of years of evolution in the blink of an eye... humans didn't just "appear". They are the result of millions and millions of years of evolution of monkey-like creatures, the ones who happened to be small and resourceful enough to survive the many extinctions that wiped out species routinely. Yes, man was different... but it has been proven that over time humans have gained in intelligence. Early proto-humans were nowhere near as smart as us... and the fact that they were intelligent is both luck and evolution. Because any creature shaped like a human that didn't have a big brain would be dead in a second... humans are slow, weak, have bad hearing and eyesight, etc... the brain and opposable thumbs are the only things we have going for us. So the fact that we have those things shows that our ancient ancestors adapted the traits that led them on the path to success, as all species try to do... and happened into creating something unique.

Quote:11. This human has a brain exponentially more advanced than that of any other creature. It goes far beyond basic instinct, and develops higher thinking. It survives against odds and eventually becomes a social animal. It creates coverings, shelters, skins, and eventually learns new secrets, like fire, weapons, and language.

Other species use tools too, of course... see sea otters breaking things on rocks, chimps using sticks to get ants out of their nests, etc... as I said, the most intellligent chimps are as smart as very young children (what was it, 3 year olds or something? Maybe more?). We are just the lucky ones, the ones who developed even bigger and more useful brains... you clearly take this as an act of divine providence creating one great species to rule over them all with its intelligence, but I see it as a move of evolution that, since we have no other planet with a developed ecosystem to compare it to, we cannot accurately guess at what the rarity or chance of it happening really are. It well might be rare... it took just the right set of circumstances, disasters, land forms, and all the rest... after all dinosaurs never gained high intelligence after millions of years. You need just the right species in the right place... we were lucky enough to be there. And for all we know something like that could have happened in some other planet, but we have NO way of knowing.

Quote:12. Development continues. The human now moves beyond merely eating plants and other animals, and learns how to cleverly farm and harvest these things. Man forms complex languages and heirarchies. Man also thinks like no other. Man questions things, wonders at his own existence, and is aware of there being things unknown, and with that, a desire to discover them. Man thinks of gods, and God in particular. Man begins to form beliefs and rituals, and unlike anything before it, practices recreation, creating things that have no practical purpose. Man learns language, creates music, creates stories and sagas. And man
spreads the world.

Heh... those go in a different order... :)

Obviously before language proto-humans thought about things in whatever way they could, but without being able to interact with others it didn't matter much... language (of any form -- oral, pictoral, glyphic, hand motions, writing...) is the basis of human existance, and would come before humans moved very far beyond the rest of the animals.

Of course lots of animals use sounds to communicate, so humans are hardly unique there. We just have the brain to use that communication for greater things than any other creatures can.

As for gods, I've explained them already -- you are right, humans question their surroundings to a degree unlike what we see in animals. So of course they wondered 'how could this world be' and 'why does it work'. And at that phase, some 'greater beings' who control it seems like the most obvious, and at that time probably only, reasonable thought... and though humankind developed and became greater the lessons we learned early on stuck with us. Here's an example... things such as primal fears -- we are afraid of snakes, of rats, etc. in a primal way but are not afraid in that way of bombs... the idea of religion seems to have 'stuck' like that for some reason.

Quote:13. Man is so spread out from their once-nomadic lifestyle, yet all of them experience this evolution of thought, some faster than others. Man moves from the concept of villages to cities, and from cities to nations, from nations to empires, all under complex systems of government. Man forms armies to protect or to conquer.

'some faster than others'? You mean the speed of innovation? That's another great question... invention and innovation. What do the great inventions take? How hard is it, truly, to discover something revolutionary? Hard, clearly, given how long so many things took to be discovered... it takes one person, and a spark of innovation or luck, to discover the true radical changes... digging up metals (as opposed to just picking things up off the ground, the idea of mining...), the wheel, combing things to make something better (Bronze, improved Iron, and Steel being some of the most important...), etc, etc... and then you must consider their position. For instance, the North American natives. They did not have any pack animal larger than a dog until Europeans arrived. That obviously greatly slowed their development... or in South America, with just Llamas... there you might invent the wheel, but with just dogs and humans? Even the wheel will take a lot longer to think of because you don't have big animals lying around to think of putting to use that way...

There are so many aspects to this, and I find it a very interesting thing... but none of it has anything to do with a god. I know, I know -- you probably think that many of those people were divinely inspired or something. Once again, you are afraid of the idea that chance, luck, and good circumstances have had such a complete role in creating the world as we know it.

Quote:14. Over thousands of years, Empires rise and fall. Suddenly, the Industrial revolution occurs, and with it, humanity begins to advance at a far more rapid rate. Of these empires, one of them becomes the master of them all, the British. And this empire gives birth to America, who wins its independence from Britain against heavy odds.

You just focus on this because you're American. If you were British, the American Revolution would be like two paragraphs in your textbook... this just shows how to all people, their own society and people are the most important and the focus. It's a completely natural human reaction, focusing on your own group, and it makes sense... but acting like we won the Revolution because of divine aid is insane if you look at it in the grand scheme of things, or even in the scheme of how exactly we won that independance. (hint: it had a LOT, like nearly everything, to do with how well Ben Franklin charmed the French)

Oh yeah, and the industrial revolution wasn't "sudden". It, like all things, developed over centuries from early inventions and discoveries to more that build on the first... the industrial revolution happened fast, but because of a competely explainable set of circumstances and factors that combined to make that the perfect time for such a fundamental change to society, and one that had been building from the discovery of gunpowder (the idea of people making explosions by way of technology, not magic...) so many years before.

Quote:15. The 20th century begins, and the industrial revolution kicks into overdrive. Humans do things that they could never even dream of. We create a weapon that can kill millions in an instant. We can fly higher than birds and swim deeper than fish. We can harness primal elements and use them for our own purposes. We have the ability to leave our own world and travel beyond it. During this time, America, once a step-child colony of a great empire, becomes the greatest in history, dominating the world's economy and wielding enough power to annihilate the world many times over.

Yeah, in the last century it does feel like time accelerated and we developed so much faster, doesn't it? Tech just hit the critical mass that it needed to explode in a dramatic fashion... it is truly amazing to see how utterly different we are from people 200 years ago, compared to anyone in just about any other time comparing themselves to people (in a general sense, not in the sense of any specific people) 200 years before them. Amazing? Yes. But not magical or godlike (same idea, something not natural...). Technology as we know it today had just hit the point it needed to explode out and change the world.

Quote:16. Somewhere out of this entire mix, I am born. I am lucky enough to live a good life, despite a few shaky years. And I now sit here at my computer, defending my beliefs.

Lucky, aren't you? We are all very lucky that we weren't born in Sub-Saharan Africa, but it's luck that does that, not "god"...

I never claim that humans are the center of the universe, but that we are the most important and advanced creatures on Earth is blatantly obvious. Until you show me a dolphin that can build a skyscraper or a monkey that can perform heart surgery, or any creature that isn't human do such simple things as grow food, domesticate animals or make fire, arguing otherwise is just stupid.

Nor do I say that the idea of everything being the result of chance is impossible, just as damn near as you can get without being there. And given how absolutely minute the chance is that we could get from #1 to #16 (or even as far as #2 or #3) if the whole process began again 1,000,000,000,000^1,000,000,000,000 times, for some bloated scientists to say that God is impossible but this is obvious proves that Christians aren't the only ones with a case of overstated self-importance and pretentiousness.

These arguments can go on and on and on, but it is my opinion that at the end of our lives we just die and rot and nothing more is thought of that, is just stupid. Everybody is on Earth for a reason, it wasn't some impossible chance, per se, but I know that I like to think that after my life is over I have something to look forward to, an afterlife. Without an afterlife with whatever god up there is behind the mystery that is life on Earth (I myself choose God himself, Catholicism Wow!) what is life? It's nothing. It's pointless. There's so much more to life than that.

My Canadian two cents.

Quote: I never claim that humans are the center of the universe, but that we are the most important and advanced creatures on Earth is blatantly obvious. Until you show me a dolphin that can build a skyscraper or a monkey that can perform heart surgery, or any creature that isn't human do such simple things as grow food, domesticate animals or make fire, arguing otherwise is just stupid.

Read my post... it'll take a long time, but you should. :)

Hmm... no, you don't say that humans are the figurative center of the universe (as in the most important things in all creation, far too much to be mere chance)... but you imply it pretty strongly...

Domesticate animals? Actually, there's a kind of ant that 'farms' these larvae or something... in the Amazon, maybe? And as I said several others use tools, and some can learn basic learning things (dolphins with patterns, apes and monkeys with experiments that have shown they can be as smart as very young children, etc)

Yes, we have all those traits to a FAR greater extent than anything else, that is incontestible. But they are not absent in the rest of nature, and that's a clue that we aren't some super-special thing that is unique from our environment. We are just the top feat of evolution on this planet.

Quote:Nor do I say that the idea of everything being the result of chance is impossible, just as damn near as you can get without being there. And given how absolutely minute the chance is that we could get from #1 to #16 (or even as far as #2 or #3) if the whole process began again 1,000,000,000,000^1,000,000,000,000 times, for some bloated scientists to say that God is impossible but this is obvious proves that Christians aren't the only ones with a case of overstated self-importance and pretentiousness.

Hmm... #2, the existence of matter. You say that the existence of matter is a amazing thing that you don't think would happen by chance? Now, of course, we know nothing at all about how matter originally came to be, or if there is an 'originally'.... those questions are beyond what modern science can answer or seriously try to answer. So all I can do is say 'we must assume that matter came into existence somehow', without saying how because I have no clue... but I would not say that it requires some kind of god.

#3... if somehow such a "ball" formed I think the explosion was inevitable eventually. Beyond that... yes, each step does require cooincidence and luck. But so does everything! More is based on luck than most people would like to think... including the evolution of the world, for sure.

I can of course see how this is disturbing to many people and how they retreat from it into the familiarity of religion, but that just proves again that human nature is far from perfect... then again, the existence of war does that.

If you look at the human body its pretty damn well designed , Everything in it is well placed and functional , Even details like Color vision and taste pads so we can enjoy are food are testiment to inteligent design since we really could live without those things but we have them .

Nature is also balanced in food and orderd in a food chain , (minus human interference)

Truth is if things just came about by accident they would be more choatic and I seriously doubt life would even survive on its own without some directing and coordinating.

Albert Einstein came to believe in god when he examined the complexity and odds of life existence.

Heh, looking on the bright side there... :)

Humans are a very weak species physically compared to most other species relative to our size. We just aren't very strong at all... and our eyes. Many other species have far better eyesight than humans. Same with our sense of smell -- it's pretty bad (though that could be seen as a good thing if you lived in the Middle Ages...). Et cetera. As I said, the only things humans actually have going for them is a big brain and opposable thumbs... but luckily those two things are very, very useful.

I once tried to make a stone carved spear head.

Also Darunia if you practice christmas and set up a tree and decorations ,then your pretty hypocritacle as a Atheist practicing a Christianize celebration.

Christians celebrating Halloween = Paganism. I don't CELEBRATE Christmas; I receive gifts on it. To me, it isn't rooted so much in Christ, but in all of humanity. I wasn't raised to think that we celebrate the execution, rebirth (or whatever horse shit you peddle) of Jesus, I was raised to be happy and pleasant on December 25th. It isn't a religious holiday for me, it's just a pleasant, festive day. I will continue to "celebrate" the day on my own accord. Thank you and good night.

Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
[b]Also Darunia if you practice christmas and set up a tree and decorations ,then your pretty hypocritacle as a Atheist practicing a Christianize celebration.

Christians celebrating Halloween = Paganism. I don't CELEBRATE Christmas; I receive gifts on it. To me, it isn't rooted so much in Christ, but in all of humanity. I wasn't raised to think that we celebrate the execution, rebirth (or whatever horse shit you peddle) of Jesus, I was raised to be happy and pleasant on December 25th. It isn't a religious holiday for me, it's just a pleasant, festive day. I will continue to "celebrate" the day on my own accord. Thank you and good night. [/B]

I actually dont celebrate Halloween out of choice and I know many who also refuse to practice this celebration, Halloween isnt a christian celebration but a celebration based from a Irish folk lore called hallowseve , Infact Halloween isnt even practiced in very many european countries.

Yeah, they didn't really celebrate Halloween in Slovenia from what I can remember...

That's because they have Maskare in February, which is like a week-long Halloween.

France just celebrated halloween for a few years , But now they stoped as it waisnt really a festival they were into,The merchants were hoping that france would go halloween so they can market it.

Alot of countries just have some other festival in Halloweens place.

Yeah Weltall, to be honest I gotta agree that taking part in a holiday doesn't mean one's celebrating everything the holiday stands for. After all, the whole holiday's meaning was completely changed to what it is now thanks to people celebrating it in other ways long ago to avoid persecution. Same with Halloween, which I DO celebrate myself, because I love costumes and candy. I love doing the thing with the black silk over one's face and a dark hood to give one the ol' wraith appearence, and it's such a cheap yet completely effective optical illusion that ya scare pretty much everyone. It's fun to see some grown man come out of their house saying "ooh scary" to your little sibs and then seeing you suddenly and ACTUALLY freaking out for a sec, or when some poor individual thinks you have to be some sort of life size doll someone dragged along and tries looking "into" the hood to see if it's really empty in there. Who couldn't enjoy that kind of fun?

April fools is fun!

What I do every halloween is have a bowling pizza party with my freinds, Its not celebrating halloween but it certainly is a fun activity.

Quote:Yeah Weltall, to be honest I gotta agree that taking part in a holiday doesn't mean one's celebrating everything the holiday stands for.

...I didn't say it...

It was me peeps!

*Darunia scores a critical victory over those who would call him a hypocrite*

Why would it be a victory? Your defense is that you dont give a shit and celebrate it anyway.

I can see your pretty pissed off today too, I didnt mean anything personally.

But I guess declaring War on Goron will make you feel better.

Thousands of flying Saucers orbit Hyrule preparing for orbital bombardment,Darunia babby son is kidnaped and repeatedly probed on board the mother ship.

Why would it be a victory? Your defense is that you dont give a shit and celebrate it anyway.

Because you (collective, plural) called me a hypocrite for celebrating X-mas and being an atheist...my Halloween strategy smashed your coalition and gave me the field of victory.

Quote:Originally posted by alien space marine
What I do every halloween is have a bowling pizza party with my freinds,

You are one whacked, crazed-out party animal.