Quote: You say it would be a simple step to add bots, but as LL pointed out it just isn't that easy. The difficulty involved in making bots for a battle racing game vs. the number of people who would actually use this mode probably just didn't pay off for Nintendo if they thought of it at all.
True, it's completely different. But still, it's not like Nintendo doesn't have people who do AI... I'm sure its far harder to do than just making a racing AI is, but still... they could do it. Bring in someone who knows how better (LL, if it's as different as you say, would it be so horrible?)? I don't know, but I'm sure they could have.
Quote:I know this was discussed earlier, but I should be working on homework right now so I don't have the time to read a few pages pages, but how many battle racing games have had semi-decent bots? With a game like Double Dash that has a huge number of character/cart/weapon combinations I can't imagine to think of what a headache it would be to design even a mediocre battle mode AI.
Hmm... good question. Rush 2049 seems to only have it in the DC... BattleTanx Global Assualt is a bit different since its slower paced and closer to a FPS but it's a decent comparison anyway, and in that game while you can beat them most of the time they present enough of a challenge to be fun... though I will admit it's a lot better if you have a friend too (for 2 comps and 2 humans). :) And as for DKR... I don't remember, it's been a LONG time since I've played that game in battle mode. Hmm, any other games... I'd mention Viligante 8, but never played those games...
Quote:You guys just aren't getting it. You keep saying that Nintendo is the biggest developer in the world or something, and therefore they should have every feature imaginable. It doesn't work that way. It has nothing to do with size. Having more people working on the game will not make it better or finish it faster. You can choose to believe that I might know what I'm talking about since this is what I do AND this is what other, much better and more experienced programmers also say, or you can ignore it and believe what you think is true even though it's not.
Like ABF said, you don't have to be an artist to be an art critic or a game designer to be a game critic. Weltall doesn't need to be a politician to say that Clinton should have done this or that, and the same with ABF and Bush.
Now to correct ABF, I haven't taken many programming classes. He confused that with game art classes. However, I have been making games from scratch with a friend of mine who does all of the programming, and I'm very well aware of how difficult it is. Well, our main problem right now is with getting the animation system and collision detection to work well, but we've had some AI headaches in the past and I'm sure we will again very soon.
Quote:This started off because I was frustrated with ABF complaining about lazy programmers, and then I tried to explain that more programmers is not the answer. I'm not saying that Nintendo couldn't have done it, I'm saying that none of you know how to do it either so stop trying to pretend that you do. Your "solutions" are things that are covered and dismissed in the first week of any software engineering class. That's not something you would know, but when I try to explain it so you will understand you don't listen and just repeat the same nonsense. Never mind, I don't know why I bother. You are obviously right because you want to be, and it doesn't matter what anyone else says.
I don't understand this blind defending of Nintendo going on here. You, DJ, and Derek are all blindly defending Nintendo, hoping that if you close your eyes to the problem it will go away. Well guess what? That's not how it works. Right now you three are acting the exact same way that Nintendo is. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Don't keep up with the times!". Nintendo's first-party games have been seriously lacking in some
now-important areas. Online play. Good bots. Good single-player modes for their multiplayer titles. And then of course overall polish for most of their games, although it's mainly just cosmetic stuff. Good FMV, voice acting, etc. No real effect on gameplay but precisely the kind of stuff that catches peoples' eyes when they walk through Best Buy and see videos on display.
And
of course playing with friends is better than playing with bots, but you can't always have three other people over at your house when you feel like playing a round of Mario Kart of Perfect Dark.
But anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is that Nintendo added very little to the Mario Kart formula with DD. It's still a fun game, but this is what we waited seven years for?? They can't even keep up with Rare and Naughty Dog! No big single-player mode, no bots for battle mode. The excuse "they didn't have enough time" is a pathetic one. They had
seven years to improve upon their last game. SEVEN YEARS!! If that's not enough time to come up with more ideas and add bigger and better features, then Nintendo needs some serious help.
This thread is stupid. *goes back to playing Double Dash*
I'm not defending Nintendo in general, just in this situation. I'm not blindly devoted to Nintendo and know they made a slew of mistakes the last few years. Wind Waker may have topped a Link to the Past, in my opinion, if it was more difficult and they had included that extra dungeon that they wanted to put in. I just think that all the criticism over Mario Kart is going too far. Yes it's been 7 years since the last home console Mario Kart, but do you really think they have been developing Double Dash that entire time? The teaser we saw at E3 three years ago was the first there was even a mention of a new Mario Kart, and that teaser wasn't even indicative of what Double Dash turned into. I thought the adding of two character per cart and specialized weapons was a great change for the Mario Kart series, and I don't think bots would have made it that much better of a game. Do you think another year or so of development to add some bots would have been worth it?
I'm fully aware of the fact that they haven't been working on DD for seven years. But that's how long we've had to wait for a new Mario Kart game, and some of us expected at least the same level of care put into the single-player mode of the game as Rare did with DKR and Naughty Dog did with CTR. Is that really too much to ask for? It's not like EAD has been cranking out tons of games lately.
Mario Kart has always been about multiplayer. Always. Double Dash has even better multiplayer than the previous games with the addition of co-operative racing. Now, to say that I wouldn't like a good single-player storyline in Mario Kart would be wrong, but it doesn't hurt the game that much as it is still a very, very fun game.
Yes, the multiplayer mode is crazy fun, but why aren't any of you holding Nintendo up to Rare and Naughty Dog's standards? Why do we have to settle for just a good multiplayer mode? You people are far, far too easy on Nintendo sometimes. I love them just as much as any of you do, but I'm not afraid to say it when they make a mistake. I say that because I love them so much. Otherwise I would have just quit being a Nintendo fan a long time ago.
Quote:Now to correct ABF, I haven't taken many programming classes. He confused that with game art classes. However, I have been making games from scratch with a friend of mine who does all of the programming, and I'm very well aware of how difficult it is. Well, our main problem right now is with getting the animation system and collision detection to work well, but we've had some AI headaches in the past and I'm sure we will again very soon.
Close enough. :D ... okay, so art, not programming. Anyway, you seem to know what you're talking about better than LL intimates.
And as for me, I haven't done much, but I did take some C++ classes...
I agree with everything OB1 says in the second part of that post. I could quote it and reply, but all I'd have to say is 'yup, you're right'...
Ah well, I will anyway. :)
I agree, it mystifies me why some of you are saying that its okay for Nintendo to not meet the same standard (in one category or another) as Naugty Dog, Sega, Rare, 3D0, Midway, etc... its totally bizarre. Don't you think Nintendo is a better developer than those companies are? If you really do you need to look at it objectively and see how badly Nintendo is being left behind...
As OB1 says, in so many categories Nintendo is falling behind... I could repeat the list, but there's no point. But you don't care that they aren't trying to live in the modern era? It's fine with you that Nintendo wishes it were perpetually the mid '90s?
Quote: I'm fully aware of the fact that they haven't been working on DD for seven years. But that's how long we've had to wait for a new Mario Kart game, and some of us expected at least the same level of care put into the single-player mode of the game as Rare did with DKR and Naughty Dog did with CTR. Is that really too much to ask for? It's not like EAD has been cranking out tons of games lately.
I was expecting a single player game that would live up to DKR, since that's the last standard in the genre I can think of. Nintendo didn't even manage that, and as a result I'm not that interested in getting the game anytime soon... without a real solid single player game, there is no point for me.
Quote:Yes, the multiplayer mode is crazy fun, but why aren't any of you holding Nintendo up to Rare and Naughty Dog's standards? Why do we have to settle for just a good multiplayer mode? You people are far, far too easy on Nintendo sometimes. I love them just as much as any of you do, but I'm not afraid to say it when they make a mistake. I say that because I love them so much. Otherwise I would have just quit being a Nintendo fan a long time ago.
Bah, Nintendo on the same standards as Naughty Dog, Rare, 3D0, Midway, Activision, et al? Madness!
This would have been perfectly satisfactory seven years ago, but today? It's just plain indifference. Even doing something as simple as adding online play would have made up for everything, but alas Nintendo is not a believer of online gaming.
*goes back to playing Rainbow Six 3 with some friends online*
Repeating what I just said... :)
Quote:As OB1 says, in so many categories Nintendo is falling behind... I could repeat the list, but there's no point. But you don't care that they aren't trying to live in the modern era? It's fine with you that Nintendo wishes it were perpetually the mid '90s?
Well for the most part...
But you repeated what
I said!
Ah, but I said as much, which is of course a vital difference... :D
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Ah, but I said as much, which is of course a vital difference... :D
I said it before you. :D
We were both saying similar things all along in this thread.
Okay, I was and am still not blindly defending Nintendo. I never said it couldn't be done. I never said it would ahve ruined the game or anything stupid like that. I would have LOVED bots. I am not making excuses for Nintendo. I am simply saying that it is harder than any of you think.
You mention all these other companies that had bots. If their games are so much better, than play them. Or is it that they do have bots, but the rest of the game is bad? Now I know PD was great, but the bots on DKR weren't. It always came down to the human players at the end.
And again, I have never said that Nintendo couldn't or shouldn't have had bots. Only that it is a difficult thing to do right, and as we all know, Nintendo won't do anything unless tehy can do it right. Maybe they thought they couldn't do a good enough job, maybe they ran out of time, maybe they had a brain cramp and thought it would ruin the game. I don't know. You guys can keep this going, but I'm gonna send all replies to /dev/null from now on because this is obviously going nowhere.
I still don't understand your stance on this. You admit that Nintendo is a talented developer, you admit that several other lesser developers have added bots and big single-player modes to their racing games, but you still continue to go on about how it's alright that Nintendo didn't and that they're
not lazy because of it. They could have done it, it's been done before, and they have no excuse for it! Why do you continue to defend them??
And then you use this age-old excuse:
"If their games are so much better, than play them. "
You're acting like the grumpy aunt who tells everyone to go to hell and eat something else just because people thought that her stuffing could have used more onions. I certainly hope that Nintendo doesn't think the same way you do.
I think the key to what he said was the bots in the other games weren't any fun to play with. Besides DKR I haven't played any of the other games with bots, and I barely played multiplayer in DKR so I don't have much of an opinion on it. You have to admit that Rare is a talented developer and made good bots in Perfect Dark so if they can't make decent bots in a racing game I think Nintendo would have a hard time too.
Yeah, LL... I just don't get your position at all. I want to understand you, but you do not explain yourself, you just rant at us for being stupid! That isn't the way to get anyone to ever understand you... you need to really explain what you mean. You have not done that. And you have not explained how our points don't matter or something... you just said "becuase I know I'm right I am" which is a bad arguing position.
Quote:Okay, I was and am still not blindly defending Nintendo. I never said it couldn't be done. I never said it would ahve ruined the game or anything stupid like that. I would have LOVED bots. I am not making excuses for Nintendo. I am simply saying that it is harder than any of you think.
You are most definitely defending them and making exuses. There is no possible other way to interpret your comments in this thread.
Is it hard? Sure! But as we said, shouldn't Nintendo be on at LEAST the same standards as those other lesser companies? Your position that they should not and that it's fine for them to do less than other, not as good, companies is totally baffling and bizarre.
Quote:You mention all these other companies that had bots. If their games are so much better, than play them. Or is it that they do have bots, but the rest of the game is bad? Now I know PD was great, but the bots on DKR weren't. It always came down to the human players at the end.
I actually do play BattleTanx sometimes, something I'd never do if it didn't have decent bots...
Quote:And again, I have never said that Nintendo couldn't or shouldn't have had bots. Only that it is a difficult thing to do right, and as we all know, Nintendo won't do anything unless tehy can do it right. Maybe they thought they couldn't do a good enough job, maybe they ran out of time, maybe they had a brain cramp and thought it would ruin the game. I don't know. You guys can keep this going, but I'm gonna send all replies to /dev/null from now on because this is obviously going nowhere.
Oh come on, those excuses for Nintendo are absurd. Why can't you just admit that Nintendo doesn't get modern gaming ideas, as is so plainly true? They obviously know how to make amazing games, but all those additional touches... can you deny that they just don't do any of the things on that list we provided?
They just don't care at all about providing decent single-player alternatives in multiplayer mode, or for providing bots to make the multiplayer experience more enjoyable. They have proved that fact in many, many games... its totally bizarre, but it's there and incontestible. Online too, of course, is closely related to this. But online is somewhat more excusable since it's got far more costs than just bots...
There's a right way to edit posts and there's a wrong way...
What? *acts innocent*
Uhh, I pressed stop after like a second... darn fast posting... :)
Quote:Originally posted by DMiller
I think the key to what he said was the bots in the other games weren't any fun to play with. Besides DKR I haven't played any of the other games with bots, and I barely played multiplayer in DKR so I don't have much of an opinion on it. You have to admit that Rare is a talented developer and made good bots in Perfect Dark so if they can't make decent bots in a racing game I think Nintendo would have a hard time too.
The bots in DKR were fine. They aren't going to win any awards for being smart, but at least they were there and they made the single-player mode a hell of a lot more fun than it would have been without them.
Yeah, they don't need to be super great and able to beat master players consistently or anything, just be good enough to be fun...