Tendo City

FINALLY you admit it. They are in fact games though, and that's all we wanted you to say. That's what you were denying.

But he still denies that they are exactly the same type of game Monkey Island is, which they obviously are to anyone who has played one...

Oh, so now you dont like me because I don't quit an argument when you are ahead? Too bad. :)

I was kidding, lego man.

And I never denied that those text-based adventure games were games; I merely stated that they weren't the same kind of games as the pongs and monkey islands, even if those graphic adventure games play like them. I know that they play a lot like graphic adventure games such as Monkey Island, but that does not mean that they are video games.

This has got to be the most pointless, annoying, and mind-numbing debate over semantics that I have ever been involved with.

You know the irony is that you both started it AND refuse to just give it up right?

ABF started it.

I started it? Hardly... you are the one who said that text adventure games aren't games, bringing new life to a fading debate... you seem to now be trying to take back your comments that they aren't games, but you said they are not electronic games (seeing how you compared them to board games, I see no other way to interpret that...). Absurd. Monkey Island and Zork 1 really aren't very different by most ways I can measure them, so saying they aren't in the same genre and category makes no sense at all. Dictionary games are really irrelevant... plus, you can usually find a definition to support whatever position, as seems to be the case here.

OK, so now a game that plays very, very similarly to another game is, irregardless, in a totally different genre? That "logic" is bizarre and ridiculous... but I won't go over that again. You clearly refuse to see any form of reason.

Oh, as for who started the whole 'adventure games don't include Zelda/Metroid' thing, yeah, that was me. Because they aren't.

But, uh, um, how do you explain the exploring and collection and crap? Isn't that the same as those text ones, where you'd look around and try to fit everything together? Saying Metroid Prime doesn't have any adventuring in it would be pretty silly. What would you call it, then? A wandering game?

Amen. The problem here (what sparked this whole debate) is that ABF is extremely narrow-minded and will only accept his definition of the term "adventure game", refusing to acknowledge the fact that there are several different kinds of adventure games, with Monkey Island being a graphic adventure (or PC Adventure, I guess you could call it), and Zelda/Metroid being action-adventures.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I started it? Hardly... you are the one who said that text adventure games aren't games, bringing new life to a fading debate... you seem to now be trying to take back your comments that they aren't games, but you said they are not electronic games (seeing how you compared them to board games, I see no other way to interpret that...). Absurd. Monkey Island and Zork 1 really aren't very different by most ways I can measure them, so saying they aren't in the same genre and category makes no sense at all. Dictionary games are really irrelevant... plus, you can usually find a definition to support whatever position, as seems to be the case here.

OK, so now a game that plays very, very similarly to another game is, irregardless, in a totally different genre? That "logic" is bizarre and ridiculous... but I won't go over that again. You clearly refuse to see any form of reason.

They are similar in many ways, but the omission of any interactive visuals in the text-based games makes it so that they cannot be considered as video games. Call them whatever you want, I don't care. You're still wrong. :shake: Like most of the debates I have with you, this is going nowhere. There is no point in continuing this thread.

Quote:But, uh, um, how do you explain the exploring and collection and crap? Isn't that the same as those text ones, where you'd look around and try to fit everything together? Saying Metroid Prime doesn't have any adventuring in it would be pretty silly. What would you call it, then? A wandering game?

Um... only you could take this quote of Whitefleck's to be supporting your position here, OB1... :) To a reasonable person, though, I'd say that quote is supporting my position on the text adventure issue... yet you take it to support yours. Huh? I don't see how it does that at all... he's saying (like everyone else, except you) that text adventure games are adventure games just like graphic adventures are... the quote is too vauge to say what his opinion on adventure games in general is, though. But you ignore that in your reply.

Quote:OB1 Amen. The problem here (what sparked this whole debate) is that ABF is extremely arrow-minded and will only accept his definition of the term "adventure game", refusing to acknowledge the fact that there are several different kinds of adventure games, with Monkey Island being a graphic adventure (or PC Adventure, I guess you conuld call it), and Zelda/Metroid being action-adventures.

Actually, thats almost exactly what I've been trying to all along... that they are different kinds of games, not the same genre... you seem to slowly be giving ground here. :)

Quote:They are similar in many ways, but the omission of any interactive visuals in the text-based games makes it so that they cannot be considered as video games. Call them whatever you want, I don't care. You're still wrong. Like most of the debates I have with you, this is going nowhere. There is no point in continuing this thread.

Well, we agree on one thing-- our opponent won't give up. The difference is I have all the (reasonable) evidence and everyone who has posted on the issue on my side... you just have your nonsensical opinions and "facts" to back them up. Those "acts" -- like the "fact" that a videogame is not a videogame without graphics-- aren't something I understand... I see no way that Zork 0,1,2, or 3 and Return to Zork, Zork: Grand Inquisitor or Zork: Nemesis are in different genres. They are not. The games are VERY similar. Saying they are in different genres is absurd. The fact that the latter ones have graphics and the former don't really doesn't matter here... I don't see why you think it does, honestly. So they have no pictures? So? I see no relevance to their genre or category of games in that fact...

I never said anything about them being in different genres. I said that the text-based games are not video games. It's as simple as that.

Quote:Actually, thats almost exactly what I've been trying to all along... that they are different kinds of games, not the same genre... you seem to slowly be giving ground here.

Uh no, actually, what you've been saying is that there is only one kind of "Adventure" game--the Monkey Island kind. You said that Zelda is not an adventure game because it's not like Monkey Island. Which- to put it in your most repetitious manner- is absurd. Monkey Island is a graphic adventure. Zelda is an action adventure. Both are different kinds of adventure games.

Holy shit I think I've repeated that a few hundred times now and you still don't get it.

ABF thought we were still on the whole text adventure game thing, and didn't realize you were saying it supports the previous debate, not the current one.

Not exactly, DJ. I was referring to the fact he called Zelda an Action-Adventure -- pretty much the same genre I put it in (ie I add RPG too, but thats not a big issue). :)

Of course we will probably never agree on whether Zelda can be called a plain Adventure game.

Oh, OB1, I never said it wasn't part Adventure game... I say that it isn't just an Adventure game, so calling it one makes about as much sense as calling Zelda a RPG or an action game-- you can, but you'd be wrong. Its all three.

This is roughly how it breaks down for Zelda and Metroid:

Zelda:

60 % Adventure (exploration, puzzle-solving)
39 % Action
1 % RPG

Metroid:

50 % Adventure
50 % Action

Zelda is mostly an adventure game, and Metroid is as much of an adventure game as it is an action game. I don't need to call them action-adventure games if I don't want to, just as I don't need to call Tony Hawk and extreme sports game (I can simply call it a sports game). Grim Fandango is a graphic adventure game, but you can just call it an adventure game to keep things simple.

Tony Hawk isn't really a sports game though... its a extreme sports (ie action-oriented sportsish game) game... it plays very little like any standard sports game I've played...

I'd say that Metroid is part action, part adventure, and part FPS... not sure about exact percentages, though. All three are good-sized parts of the game...

As for Zelda, I'd put the RPG percentage WAY, WAY higher, and the Adventure percentage FAR lower... As far as I can see anyway, both action and RPG are bigger parts of the Zelda formula than adventure games are. No question... I can't really give it percentages, but RPG is, IMO, a bigger part of Zelda than adventure games are. As I said before, I just don't see much of an adventure game influence in Zelda... the puzzles aren't much like adventure puzzles and the games have relatively simple storylines, and those are the two main features of the adventure genre... you've got to have at least puzzles and Zelda puzzles are more action/RPG style puzzles, not adventure style inventory item management (classic adventure style) and/or object manipulation (Myst-style) puzzles that are in adventure games.

Oh... one more thing. I recently started playing The Longest Journey. Its a truly great adventure game. It did come out in 2000, but I just got it early this month and only started it recently... it is, without a doubt, the best adventure game I've played since Grim Fandango. Its not as good as that game, of course, but its really, really good. Anyone with any intrest in adventure games would definitely like it... it classic styled, with lots of inventory puzzles and lots of conversations and story. And a easy to use mouse interface... not 3d one like Grim Fandango or Monkey Island 4, but thats fine because both ways work well.

Anyway, its only like $20 or less so get it if you like the genre... after Grim Fandango, of course.

Dude, this thread died a month ago.

Yup. And there hadn't been a new post in this forum in almost a week... so I added new replies to three old threads. I can't think of anything new to 'debate'... and I didn't want to leave this forum not having been posted in in a week...

A quest is the act of searching for something or multiple somethings. Technically speaking, you're questing for your Kellogg's Corn Flakes® every morning.

Comes from medieval French "queste", which has today evolved into "quête" and still refers to simply trying to get something, rather than any grand adventure.

--

RPG - Role-Playing Game. A game in which you play the role of someone or something. First used when games where played on paper, see Dungeons and Dragons. Was later applied to certain video games because their retarded combat scheme (I'll stand in place while you throw fucking asteroids on my skull, then you do the same) is basically stat-influenced, turn-based dice-rolling processed by compy00tar.

--

Adventure game: a game of adventure.

ad·ven·ture (ad-ven'cher)
n.

-An undertaking or enterprise of a hazardous nature.
-An undertaking of a questionable nature, especially one involving intervention in another state's affairs.
-An unusual or exciting experience: an adventure in dining.
-Participation in hazardous or exciting experiences: the love of adventure.
-A financial speculation or business venture.

Thus, pretty much every video game can be classified as adventure, including Shadow President, Panic Restaurant and Aerobiz Supersonic.

--

Now personally, I've learned to call turn-based combat games RPG, top-down "live action" games (Zelda) adventure, and "Monkey Island" type games boring. Well seriously though, they're probably closer to my definition of a puzzle game (anything that requires me to make extensive use of my brain is, in fact), but I'll give that I haven't dabbled in them much (basically null except Space Quest V and Maniac Mansion).

Space Quest V and Maniac Mansion are both great adventure games.

Why resurrect this long-dead topic? GameSpotting article. :)

Admittedly its by a person who loves adventure games, but its still a good piece...

http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/feature...oe/10.html

Quote: Are Hybrid Games the Future of the Adventure Genre?
Just as fusion cuisines have become the newest craze in the culinary arts, so have hybrid games become the latest trend in game design. In the adventure genre, these hybrid games blend elements of adventures with those of action, role-playing, and other genres. Long since passed are the days of the golden era of interactive fiction. The emblematic text parser that first appeared in Will Crowther's Colossal Cave in 1975, which later became the trademark of Infocom titles such as Zork, has all but disappeared from contemporary adventure games. It was replaced by the graphical user interface in 1984, when King's Quest made Sierra the preeminent adventure game developer of the time. Interest in the genre peaked in 1993 with Cyan's Myst, a game that fundamentally changed how players interacted with the adventure game world. Over the next decade, however, the adventure genre was forced to reinvent itself in response to the changing needs of the gaming community. Today, the adventure genre has reemerged, but in the form of Eidos' Tomb Raider and Electronic Arts' Harry Potter clones. Such games challenge not only gamers' intellect, but also their agility. When LucasArts recently announced the development of the next Indiana Jones and Full Throttle sequels, it promised the players a new hybrid action-adventure genre that would provide a highly immersive, interactive experience. These hybrids also promised to help bring the adventure genre into its next golden era. Yet, in the end, must we sacrifice the identity of one genre in the creation of another?

screenshot
The upcoming Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness is a pinnacle in the hybrid action-adventure genre.
Evolution or Extinction
The battle between progress and tradition is not new. When graphical adventure games began to replace text adventure games in the early 1980s, critics complained that the implementation of graphics limited the players' imagination and the rich storytelling of interactive fiction. It is, therefore, of historical irony that Dave Lebling of Infocom said in 1996, "The whole thrust of the text adventure was one picture was worth a thousand words and we would rather give you the thousand words." When Infogrames released Alone in the Dark in 1992, the game received critical acclaim as both a 3D action title and an adventure title. Although the bland, triangular Edward Carnby of yesteryear is no match for the pixel-shaded, highly polygonal cutie Lara Croft of nowadays (as in the upcoming Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness), Alone in the Dark successfully merged elements of adventure gaming with action and strategy and subsequently formed the foundation of gameplay of all Tomb Raider titles. Six years later, in an attempt to revamp the King's Quest license to attract a wider audience, Roberta Williams transformed her Kingdom of Daventry entirely into 3D in Mask of Eternity. This sequel featured significant action sequences and rudimentary role-playing in addition to traditional adventure-oriented gameplay. The game drew fire from both fans and critics, and it met with limited commercial success. A year after, when Sierra turned the beloved Gabriel Knight from an adventure hero into an action-adventure hero in Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned, the adventure game community was forced to accept that the fusion of adventure and non-adventure elements in these hybrid games was simply the next logical evolution of a troubled genre.

Where Should the Line Be Drawn?
My critics may be quick to dismiss the above reasoning as moot, given the fact that the boundary drawn between adventure and other genres is both ill-defined and arbitrary. To these critics, I refer you to "What is an ideal adventure? A guide to create the ideal adventure game" by David Tanguay. In this excellent piece, Tanguay defined an adventure as the "deterministic, intellectual problem solving in the context of a story." This elegant definition succinctly differentiates adventure games from those of action, role-playing, strategy, and other genres. In 1979, Lebling, along with Marc Blank and Timothy Anderson, presented a paper in IEEE Computer titled "Zork: A Computerized Fantasy Simulation Game." There they laid the foundation for the earliest form of interactive fiction as a form of "computerized fantasy simulation." They also speculated on how more complex, more sophisticated, and therefore more realistic simulation games could be created within the confines of this construct. Thus, the adventure genre has in its roots a design philosophy that is both well-defined and rational.

GameSpot Poll

Is the adventure genre dying?

Yes
No
Don't care!





Is the Genre Dead?
Unfortunately, the ideal must collide with the practical. The gaming community's continuous demand for real-time action and obsession with 3D graphics drove many game developers to incorporate these features into their products, regardless of whether or not they would enhance the gameplay experience. Such decisions were largely based on market demands, not design needs. At the 1998 Computer Game Developers' Conference, Steve Meretzky of Infocom hosted a heated debate on the proverbial question "Are Adventure Games Dead?" A vocal minority argued that moving to 3D graphics and a more action-oriented style of play would be the only hope for the adventure game to survive in a world dominated by action and real-time strategy games. I strongly resent such lubricious denouncement. The disappointing sales of the aforementioned King's Quest and Gabriel Knight sequels are testaments to the fact that the abandonment of classic adventure design may not necessarily lure gamers from the other genres. As Josh Mandel explained in 1999, the downfall of Sierra came when "innovation [gave] way to emulation. Whereas Sierra's management once strove to make it solid, profitable, and yet fun, they now strive to dominate other companies, force annual growth in the double digits, and (like so many other companies) cut jobs mercilessly to improve the bottom line and thrill the stockholders."

As such, we must praise the efforts of distributors and developers such as DreamCatcher Interactive, Funcom, and Microids, who have given their unwavering support of the adventure genre in recent years. It is rewarding to now see that adventure games such as Funcom's The Longest Journey and Microids' Syberia have enjoyed both critical acclaim and commercial success because of their innovative design, storytelling, and gameplay. Sequels to these two titles are currently in full development, proving once again the adventure genre is alive and well.

There Is a Future
I believe there is a future for the adventure genre. I also believe that it is not necessary to sacrifice the identity of this genre in the creation of another. Just as the popularity of fusion cuisine does not bring about the death of classic culinary styles, the existence of hybrid games should not mark the death of the adventure genre. Rather, these hybrids complement and pay tribute to elements of good adventure game design. However, disguising hybrid games as classic adventures neglects the tradition carried forth by the latter. The diminished sales of adventure games in recent years compared with games of other genres does not mean that the adventure genre is dying--it only means there is a relative lack of quality adventure titles at present. The success of a genre should never be defined by the retail sales figures it commands, but rather by the artistic contribution the genre has made to the gaming community.

Man, all the King's Quests' were awesome. I loved IV, The Perils of Rosella...I grew up playing it, but never beat it. I only beat the first one, and even than it was 1990 VGA remake. Six was awesome...that Mask one I never bothered with, as I felt it broke away with the series too much. I wonder if we'll ever see another Roberta William's KQ game...

Maniac Mansion was friggin' awesome too...the first computer game I ever got, back when we got out brand new Packard Bell 386.